Digital Painting, Adobe Photoshop CS4 

This high-res digital painting required a lot of air brushing, smearing, stamping, cloning, sponging, dodging, and burning. All done with mouse. No kidding. I’m still not proficient with my graphics tablet, but use it now for inks. 

When the book is released (from Drollerie Press), you’ll also have the map and portraits inside.  

View this and all my illustrations in my Sketchbook at the tab above.

Old Art

These are 11″x18″ charcoal and pen & ink on textured paper. These are from back when I was a teenager, long before I discovered the joy of Photoshop. View this and all my illustrations in my Sketchbook at the tab above.

Straying from the Path: New Tales of Little Red

You can read an excerpt from my story, Anthem, HERE. And a free story set in the same world HERE.

From the Drollerie site: “Authors Adrienne J. Odasso, Jennifer Moore, Batya Deene, Fraser Sherman, Angela Rega, Imogen Howson, Jo Thomas, Joselle Vanderhooft, Jessica Tudor, Greg O. Weatherford, Hilary J. Nowack, Genevieve Valentine, Skadi meic Beorh, H. Anne Stoj, David Sklar, Lee Pletzers, and Teresa Wymore re-tell the story of Little Red Riding Hood in poetry and prose. In these stories, Red is sometimes innocent, sometimes less so; and the wolf is sometimes a monster, and most often human.”

As the drums began a slow rhythm, a row of young women dressed in white skirts and straw hats took hold of the flowered streamers and solemnly wrapped their garlands about the pole. Musicians playing pipes joined the drums, blending the anticipatory beat with melodic pipes, while a more ominous chant arose from a chorus of men. The dressing of the Harvest Pole was a thanksgiving to Sula for the first reaping and a supplication for the second sowing to come.

Click to View Large Image

Women in animal costumes arrived, their clothing consisting of beads and fur at their hips and hair, their chests bare. Asada appraised each woman as she entered the clearing, imagining how the lovely young breasts might feel in her hands. The pounding of the drums shook the ground, stirring Asada’s blood more. Kami was the eighth “animal” to enter the circle. As each small foot hit the dirt, strips of blue feathers and leather strung with glass and silver beads flung up from bands around her thighs and upper arms.

Asada roamed Kami with possessive eyes. Her teeth clenched and her nostrils flared. If Kami had understood her power, the passion licking at Asada would quickly have consumed her with anger, but with eyes closed and head thrown back, Kami remained oblivious to her effect. She danced only for her god, and Asada doubted it was the one honored by the rest of the festival. After following Kami on one of her hunts, Asada had discovered the girl not only commanded beasts with the ease of a shepherd but made offerings to the Great Mother.

Like an extension of the hypnotic rhythm, Kami’s rigid body loosened, her limbs spreading like a series of dancers unified by the beat. Her body became a cascade of feet sliding, hips tilting, torso undulating like waves breaking across a shore. Beads and feathers swung from her hair, impressing onlookers with the illusion of an elegant bird, layered in multicolored down. Everything about Kami was soft—her parted lips, her delirious eyes, her naked breasts cupped by wreaths of blue feathers. Red splotches from exertion marked the pale skin on her chest, and her pink nipples puffed slightly atop her swaying breasts. When Kami turned her back to the audience, the shine of her bare skin glistening in the firelight stole Asada’s breath away.

In step to the rhythm, Kami tossed her arms wide like wings and stomped, flinging the feathers and beads backward as other women in gold, black, and green costumes moved in line before and behind her. She drew the length of another woman against her and slid her arms under the other woman’s, spreading them high with her own so that the two merged as if in flight. The costumed women moved as one, their oiled hips and limbs like a sea of flesh churned by a storm.

When the drums stopped again, Asada’s neck prickled and a shiver raced along her spine. A short silence descended before the audience joined the dancers and the rhythm returned. A hand grasped her, and she felt as if she were falling until she ran into Hadred. His rough cheek sparked an image of her father. A memory warm, then painful.

Hadred was stronger than she’d expected. Yet, even the strongest men had weaknesses. Even the bulls among them were controllable. She could snap his knee, destroy what manhood he possessed, or pluck out an eye. Such calculations were always part of her unshared thoughts. She decided to let him hold her because she knew she didn’t have to. Hadred kissed her before he turned and took Serene in his arms.

Asada found herself facing Kami, who stood blinking, sweating but chilled from the sudden loss of Serene’s body heat. Drenched in blue and silver, Kami clutched herself, and lust engulfed Asada as she stared at the oil-slicked ribbon of Kami’s cleavage. She drew Kami close and kissed her. “Oh my sweet girl,” she muttered into Kami’s mouth and began to maul her with fingers frantic to find a hold on the slippery skin.

The crowd writhed with its own sexual ecstasies. Dancers bumped them, clung, and dropped away, occasionally stealing Asada’s attention as sweat stung her eyes and the heady aroma of body oil intoxicated her. She dug her fingers into Kami’s cheek and forced her tongue into the docile mouth. Kami had grown weak with pleasure, and her passive compliance only aroused Asada more.

Asada shoved one hand into the feather-ringed skirt. She pushed through the small pile of tangled hair, but when Kami’s knees weakened, she pulled Asada off-balance. They both fell.

After peeling away the loincloth, Asada held Kami’s legs apart and gazed with blissful eyes at Kami’s plump, hairy labia spread to reveal the shy hole that drooled a translucent cream. Asada was sure she had never seen anything so beautiful. Its power lay in its ability to be possessed. It’s weakness lay in its need to be touched. She pressed her thumb into the sensitive slit, but an intact hymen refused access. She had not expected Kami to be a virgin.

She relished the vision of the saturated flesh beneath her, but Kami’s needy body was open and trusting, taunting her with its youth. A chaotic mingling of carnal images both tender and vicious filled her heart like a sail, but then a movement caught her attention. In the forest beyond, the shadows rolled with an eerie stealth, rippling, like a beast with many heads.

The instinct Asada had ignored earlier filled her now with barely-restrained panic. She had not seen it. She had refused to see it. She backed away from the throng of dancers, dragging a protesting Kami with her.

Naked and stumbling along behind, Kami fought her kidnaper, and when Asada forced her to run, Kami started screaming. As other screams erupted behind them, Kami turned and fell. Asada lifted her to her feet and continued pulling her along.

Asada drove her on relentlessly, heading for the stockpile of weapons beyond the sacred plain, while the forest ignited almost at once. Heat hit them in a suffocating wave. Kami tumbled head-over-heels, and Asada fell hard to her knees. After the heat rolled past, it seemed to turn and surround them in an ocean of flames. The conflagration spread through treetops ahead of a rush of soldiers. Black like the charred remains they would leave behind, the soldiers of Darklaw spilled into the clearing, and scores of villagers fell under their flashing silver blades…

A Novel Coming Soon From Drollerie Press

I snatched up the empty quart of Whiteman’s Cream Line and wiped the open end across my shirt. The tin bail-top lid had been snapped off and the wide glass neck was smooth.

Miss Jinny had been craning her neck to watch me, her arms braced against the stall, her cotton drawers bunched at her ankles and her bare ass high in the air. “What do you plan to do with that, Mr. Cortland?”

After pushing her dress farther back, I rolled the bottle’s texture of embossed words and rings around her skin. “I aim to screw you with it, Miss Jinny.”

Her eyes roamed down my body to my trousers. “Why not use what God Almighty has given you?”

I rubbed the bulge and smiled, reluctant to confess that the Good Lord had blessed me with ambition and a steady gun hand such as proper society allows no woman. The sausage that I had planned to eat for lunch slipped down my trouser leg, so I leaned forward to distract Miss Jinny.

“Or maybe you need a lickin’.”

When her eyes widened, I dropped to my knees and tongued her furry slit until she was so spent of pleasure that she lay breathless in the hay. With panting words, she asked, “How long will you be staying, Mr. Cortland?”

I set my hat on my head and adjusted the sausage. “A day. Two.”

“Why then, I’d be pleased to see you again when you saddle up your horse.” I stayed mum, so she added, “I’m sure I could convince Daddy to discount you a quarter for the help you gave fixing the busted stall.”

I glanced at the stall she had finished nailing before I arrived. Then I winked and left.

Five years ago in Kansas City, Sealy McGuill killed my horse and used her as bait to poison wolves. But that wasn’t why I was in Rawlins, although finding McGuill here and the unexpected benefit of tasting his randy daughter went a long way to paying the debt for Skinny Gin. No, I was in Rawlins because the machinists of the Union Pacific railway went to strike, and the unionists took every chance to beat the devil out of the immigrant scabs hired to replace them. Such beatings required men of low character, which is why I knew I’d find my man, Bill “Jackjaw” Bivens, in Rawlins.

The panic of ‘83 had scared the railway into bankruptcy, so now the high officials had to fight towns looking to make favorable contracts, corrupt politicians looking for votes, and unionists looking to start a war over contracts. The town marshal was in with the union, looking the other way whenever the anarchists took to killing scabs. Bodies had been washing up along the river for months.

That’s where I came in. My name of late is “Charlie Bluff” and I work for the Pinkerton Detective Agency…

Available From Cleis Press.

“Not going back.”

“You’re all leaving.” The voice faded behind the thud of cleats as a ragged soldier stepped from behind a stack of metal pipes. He charged his rifle and nodded an apology to the bald man standing beside me. “Sorry, Colonel, but they don’t belong here.”

“We lost twenty soldiers in the last offensive,” said the colonel. “We don’t need trouble with the Nation, now do we, Sergeant? Alex is leaving. They’re all leaving.”

The Nation’s reputation encouraged cooperation from a careful man like the colonel. The sergeant was another matter, but they were both traitors to their army, their faithlessness hardly a surprise to me. I had spent my life defending my species against sapiens aggression.

Heat from the sergeant’s charging rifle shimmered the air, and when the colonel raised his own, it gleamed with an oily seep. I carried a revolver loaded with jacketed hollow points. The load gave good expansion without excessive recoil and, more importantly, it avoided extensive meat damage. Like all Patriots, I might have been mistaken for an Old West gunfighter, complete with leather boots, a black blazer, and a lawless revolver holstered on one hip. That is, if a woman had ever ravaged the American frontier.

With a discreet finger, I unstrapped and cocked the hammer. My adjutant, Ricqa, did the same.

The sergeant swung his rifle, gesturing with exaggerated movements that covered for trembling hands. “You let one in, and more always follow. And what do you think they want? To help us? To help themselves!”

I watched the sergeant’s lips compress into a tight, white line, and color drain from his cheeks, so when the colonel growled his order again, I was already diving at Alex.

The sergeant fired. Ricqa fired back, his bullets scarring the steel walls as Alex and I rolled. Caught in the crossfire, the colonel dropped like dead weight, a rifle burn leaving a black crater in his chest.

The sergeant took aim but stumbled, hit by a ricochet. As he sprawled onto the floor, his rifle spun away. Ricqa flipped him to his back, used a boot to break his nose, and stood awaiting an answer to a question he hadn’t asked. When I gave a slight nod, he shot the sergeant dead.

Alex fumbled with a rifle until I plucked it from her grasp. Ricqa cuffed her wrists and escorted her to my ship.

***

I spit black water and splashed away from the roar of tanks, their metal hinges groaning as their steel belts crushed the forest. After the water receded and my boots hit hard ground, I felt renewed strength. The deafening roar had faded to a hum, punctuated by explosions of grenades that fizzled out quickly on a planet with no oxygen.

Although a viroskin covered me like a second skin, absorbing the radiation from Dahmin’s suns, the stinging ammonia rain made my lungs burn. Metabolizing drugs created oxygen internally and filtered poisons through accelerated sweating. What the film didn’t protect, the viromeds repaired, but their turpentine reflux was nauseating.

I was on my way to meet with the colonel, and not for the first time. I had been through this moment over-and-over, hoping to undo everything I had done. I wouldn’t make the mistake again of leaving her at the mercy of those with no mercy.

I carried a map and note from one of the cells of Resistance fighters that littered the valley. If I could avoid the tanks, I might also work my way clear of other cells entrenched in the outskirts of the city.

Picking my way through blue foliage, I glanced around, searching through the darkness for something alien on the alien world. I thought I saw the grimy face of a pale man, and when I blinked, the world became a riot of ghostly images. Across the landscape, people stood superimposed, their entangled iterations like trails of motion, but nothing moved. Although I swiped at the closest ones, I failed to move them. Unlike my mind, my hands were trapped in time.

Time travel was not so glamorous as one might imagine. Mostly, there was the insanity. If Einstein had been right, and light speed was a constant, then time travel would have become a technology as popular as the Integrid. Since science had not been entirely successful with its notion of time, metascience developed its own. The technology of Shifting had yet to achieve what I discovered on Dahmin, that its cautionary theory was right: the trouble with “shifting” your mind from one probability to another was the inevitable confusion of who, exactly, “you” were. Hence, the insanity.

I stepped into an iteration of myself and closed my eyes. When I opened them again, the phantoms were gone, but my throat was dry. I choked on my own saliva. As I coughed, an exquisite rush distracted me, and I tasted a mouthful of scotch. The heady burn was too real to be a mere memory. Distracted by taunting desires, I didn’t notice the body until I tripped over it. Alex gazed up at me, her body charred and smoking as she sighed away her final breath.

I would have to try again…

AVAILABLE From Drollerie Press in Straying From the Path: New Tales of Little Red. CLICK HERE. 

TO READ A FREE STORY set in the same world CLICK HERE.

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write erotica/erotic romance. I joined fellow author Joely Sue Burkhart on Sunday, May 30th. Deena Fisher moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.
——————————————

Panel: Teresa Wymore, Joely Sue Burkhart
2PM Eastern, May 30, 2010

[Deena] 2:07 pm: This is writing erotica and erotic romance with Teresa Wymore and Joely Sue Burkhart. Both of these very talented authors are skilled at writing sex scenes that sizzle, that still demonstrate character depth and move the plot along. I’m still not sure how they do it. Here’s hoping they’ll tell us.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: As Teresa said, we love smut…when it’s really good!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: Teresa, how do YOU write really good smut?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:10 pm: I write a lot from experience–not blow-for-blow, but real life not ideals

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I try to make it real and love it when it sounds like it is

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I’m not shy either, which helps a lot

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: What makes it real for me are the emotions and conflicts…not the body parts.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: I’m more interested in what the character wants and is afraid of — especially in bed.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: Yes…I think of my writing as erotica althoug some might see it as erotic romance because of the relationships

[Teresa Wymore] 2:12 pm: What is the definition difference?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: The lines are blurred more and more, even between romance and erotic romance, vs. erotica.

[Deena] 2:13 pm: I think the biggest difference between erotica and erotic romance, is that there’s a happily ever after, or a happy for now at the end of the romance.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: Erotica (for me) is more about the sexual journey, the exploration, where romance is about the relationship, which sex plays a part.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:13 pm: Bleh…forget the future…live for now…that’s what I like writing    

[joelysueburkhart] 2:14 pm: There are things now under the “romance” label that would have been considered erotica ten or twenty years ago.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, lots of blurring can happen in those defs

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, explicit sex is normal in mainstream, right, just not dominant?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Romance in general seems to be “hotter.”

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I write mostly lesbian erotica, both short and novel, but have written straight and m/m. I started publishing in digital about 10 years ago and even that have evolved

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I like the “heat” levels..they make me laugh

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Me too, Teresa. Is this “hot” or “smoldering” or “sensual” or …?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:16 pm: I stink at labels. My greatest weakness as a writer is my inability to categorize myself. So when a friend told me to submit a story as “erotic” I was like….really?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:16 pm: Like porn, erotica is going through that adjustment of needing it to be more unusual, envelope-pushing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:17 pm: Personally, pushing the envelope can be dangerous — seems to lead to stories that resolves to simple “acts” rather than any real depth.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: yeah, disappoints me too seeing that act/fetish focus

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: to me, that is porn

[joelysueburkhart] 2:18 pm: A true erotic scene isn’t about the anatomy or dirty words, etc.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: you have to have relationships, and few relationships are all about An Act

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: But #$%^&* if those anthologies aren’t sellin!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I see calls for new ones every week

[joelysueburkhart] 2:19 pm: *nods*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: #$%^&* #$%^&* #$%^&*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: neat

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: like demolition man

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I write d – a -m -n and it translates it for me

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: So we’ve talked about what we don’t like in “erotica” — what do you like, Teresa?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: dominant women, obedient men, and beer

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: oh..you mean erotica

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: Wheeee!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: The relationships…I like real people having awesome sex

[Teresa Wymore] 2:21 pm: bad people, good people,

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: Real people having awesome sex – yes. REAL people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: As we said in the transformative sex panel, the sexual relationship is a “hero’s journey” too.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: There are going to be moments of doubt and fear along with the heights of pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:22 pm: I see newbies entering the market and all up tight abut the sex…I understand it take a lot to break through those insecurities and self-revelations, but the acts are not good without the people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:22 pm: A scene that can take a reader through many emotions, give them chills and goose bumps…now that is a scene that would make me very happy indeed.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:23 pm: Maybe we could list a few pointers or questions we use when writing an erotic scene?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:23 pm: If a writer can make a good story without sex, then she can make a god one with it, but good sex won’t save a story.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: My first would be: use your senses, all of them.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: Don’t be afraid to explore the darker emotions.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: At the risk of TMI, I admit I use a lot from my personal experience of relationships and sex. You have to rely on what you know…which makes all the murders I write about a little tough, but there are sensual connections, emotional connections to real life

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: Please never watch porn movies and other people’s sex to write your scenes…they end up being written from the outside, not from the inside of someone with the sensual experience, as Joely says.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: Lynn Viehl asks 3 main questions when writing: who are you? What do you want? What’s the worst thing I can do to you?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:26 pm: As a reader, I want to feel it, be in the mdidle of it, not watching it.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: You can use these same questions to write a powerful sexual story, too. What do you want in bed? What’s the worst thing you think you need?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:27 pm: Good questions

[joelysueburkhart] 2:27 pm: What’s the worst sexual experience the character ever had? The best? (which for romance, had better happen on the page! haha)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:28 pm: What about bad sex..is it okay to write?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:28 pm: We spend all this time writing up character backgrounds…why not sexual backgrounds too? Dark secrets, greatest fears. They can be very powerful.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:29 pm: Admittedly we don’t see “bad” sex, at least in romance, unless it’s the antagonist.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: I’ve written unpleasant sex, often in the early experiences of a relationship, but rarely see it in other writers. I know readers want the fantasy, but as a reader myself, the fantasy includes wanting it real…and what’s more real than evolving and communicating?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Which is a hot button for me — don’t give your antagonist some sexual perversion to say he’s “bad.” That’s exactly why I chose to write a hero that was a sadist — he’s the HERO!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: Nice point!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: That’s not the “bad” I’m talking about

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Right — sorry, you mean a bad, not fulfilling experience, but that’s what popped into my head.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: perversions make for good plots

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: and character dimensions

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: Bad sex as in selfish or unfulfilling or unfinished

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: adjusting

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: fears getting in the way

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: It’s sort of become a genre pillar that the heroine of a romance should experience multiple orgasms and the best sex ever with ONLY the hero.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: She’d never have sex with him and not experience ultimate pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: Yeah, I really don’t like that. That isn’t real, and I feel it does a disservice to women’s sexuality

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: He’d never need to pop a viagra first.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: And most women need much more stimulation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: That fascinates me that women are writing these erotic stories and representing women’s sexuality in an unrealistic way. Why do you suppose?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Do women not know their own bodies or are they just writing the ideal regardless?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:34 pm: Maybe because we WISH it could be so easy and wonderful? In fact, sex can be a lot of work.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:35 pm: Sorry, I have a headache, honey?

[Deena] 2:35 pm: Maybe we’re programmed to think we’re doing it wrong if it’s not easy, so we perpetuate the stereotype?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: The fantasy is a man completely dedicated to the woman’s pleasure. He knows exactly how and where and when to touch, how long, how much. And the pleasure flows like a river!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: I keep seeing that Smart Bitches “Ur doin’ it wrong” LOLcat.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: Are erotic romance like that…the man truly devoting lots of time and types of stimulation? Or is it about 10 mins, like most men, only the women in the story find that enough?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: I don’t read a lot of straight romance any more    

[joelysueburkhart] 2:37 pm: That’s how MY erotic romances are, snort. The rest, I don’t know.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: I wish they all were

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Then I could read more again

[joelysueburkhart] 2:38 pm: It’s definitely hard to write that way — but I guess I like torturing my heroes.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Yes, that’s best…heroes need torturing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: I like to set myself a challenge (that’s where zombie romances came from). So one challenge is to write an erotic scene with very few “hot” words. Just the emotions and the senses.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: How hot can you make it?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: How long can you go before THE act?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: Without saying a single f or c word?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: NOw that’s erotic IMO.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:40 pm: Good idea…I like delving into the emotions as well, avoiding euphemisms usually, but I like the F and C & C & P words alot.    

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: Sometimes nothing but an f-bomb will do!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: But the words are so overdone in today’s erotic stories — I like to try and get by without, at least in first draft.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:41 pm: Deena once said I used “drool” too much    

[Deena] 2:41 pm: heh. She did.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Now every sex scene I laugh, Deena

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Keep that saliva in your mouth!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:42 pm: It’s like some authors use the potty language as shortcut for “this is erotic” when it’s nothing but curse words.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Yes, and lots of telling…”She was hot” “she turned him on”. Show his feelings, right?

[widdershins] 2:44 pm: What about writing the body bits? At some point you have to get anatomical. What works and what doesn’t and why?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:46 pm: Just watch the purple prose. If you have to call it a helmeted warrior with plum head, then please, just use the c word.    

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[Teresa Wymore] 2:44 pm: If you’re new to erotic writing, you might want to get some practice at erotic-readers.com. They have a list you can join. Free and goo dfeedback and you can see what others are doing, too.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: About words…

[joelysueburkhart] 2:45 pm: Widder, it really depends on your character. I admit that I can get squeamish, but I’ve had characters who’d rather just call it what it is and move on. I had to grit my teeth and go right along.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: I like the basics. I used to try for euphemisms, but that was because I was uncomfortable with saying them. But when I read others’ that can bore me.

[Deena] 2:46 pm: I think it depends on the story you’ve written. What would your characters call those body parts? Toad-in-the-hole? cocksickle?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: It has to fit the story too…sometimes gentler sometimes coarser

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[joelysueburkhart] 2:47 pm: You’re always going to have readers who are offended, or laugh. I can’t help but laugh when I see certain words in a “romance” but that’s just me.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: That’s the hard part of erotica writing…risking self-revelation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: And the heroic part

[PeachesNCream] 2:47 pm: @ Joely “but I guess I like torturing my heroes” — you aren’t exactly gentle to the heroines either *g*

[joelysueburkhart] 2:48 pm:     thanks, Peaches, I’ll take that as a compliment!

[PTurner] 2:48 pm: I realize we’re not getting into this, but one thing that really annoys me is people writing bdsm and having no clue about the complicated relationship between the sub & dom. And don’t forget the safe word!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:48 pm: yes…I think a lot of those writers are seeing it and not in the lifestyle

[Deena] 2:48 pm: A lot of people don’t understand the dynamic in a real BDSM relationship.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:49 pm: I was reluctant to write BDSM because I was afraid I’d get it wrong. I studied a lot…and then realized I’d unconsciously been pulling bits in long beforehand. That gave me the courage to just explore it through my characters, and they told me where they wanted to go.

[PTurner] 2:49 pm: I want to write it but I’m going to make sure I understand it and talk to people who are practitioners, so I learn the right way. And I only read authors who are practictioners.

[widdershins] 2:50 pm: @Theresa…I love your sense of the absurd! …. the difference between writing lesbian erotica and straight erotica? Is there one? I think so!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:50 pm: Just a comment @Pam – will you only read a murder mystery written by a murderer? Non practioners who care can write it correctly if they care enough to do the research.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: Yes..and I like writing lesbian more not just because of the sex but because the the relationships and the different power dynamic…it’s not a given like in straight, where masculine submission has to be explained

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: And by submission I don’t mean bdsm, just relationships

[PTurner] 2:52 pm: Sorry, Joely. That came out wrong. No, I wouldn’t. What I meant was I won’t read an author if I learned she didn’t care to do the research. So yes, I would read authors who weren’t practitioners but cared enough to get it right.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:53 pm: Pam, you’re absolutely right that there are really bad BDSM roms out there, no research, etc. But I learned a lot of what not to do from them!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:54 pm: I used to love Laurell K. Hamilton until I realized how much about BDSM she’d messed up! It does make it hard to read it now.

[Deena] 2:54 pm: How do they find examples of the good ones, of whatever stripe they’re reading, so they can get it right?

[PTurner] 2:54 pm: I just don’t like the way some authors think BDSM is only violence and power control. So I’d give yours a try, or anyone else’s first. My apologies! (Insert foot in mouth, bite down hard.)  

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Where do you find good erotica?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: No apologies — you’re right — there are really bad ones. I read Dr. Sarah/Joan’s reviews on Dear Author, even though she didn’t like Rae much in my book she reviewed. She DID say I got the BDSM right — and she’s always careful to point out who’s getting it right.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: DP

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Otherwise, a lot of crap to wade through

[Deena] 2:55 pm: heh. We don’t have enough of it yet, though.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: Do you want more erotica, Deena?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: I buy so much I feel I just wasted my money on–whether digital or print

[Deena] 2:56 pm: Yes, good erotica, definitely.

[Deena] 2:57 pm: I don’t want slot A into tab B erotica. That’s not to say I always get it right either. You might find something at DP you thought stunk up the place.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:57 pm: I’ve made the comment on other panels that erotica is judged differently from other genres

[Deena] 2:57 pm: Teresa and Joely are my idea of really good erotic authors though. And I think they do a great job.

[widdershins] 2:58 pm: The lines between SF genres are blurring.. mostly I think, due to e-publishing and indie writers… where do you see erotica evolving to in the next few years specifically in SF?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:58 pm: Good storytelling is incredibly key, whether the story is erotic or not.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:59 pm: Widder, that’s an interesting question. A lot of erotic SF in the past has been about the human woman abducted by aliens sort of story. I’d love to see erotic stories that explore different sorts of sexuality.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: Every genre will grow my explicit. Those of us toilign under the tainted label now will be pushed aside by young new writers for whom it’s not a stigma

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: I believe it will become more of an art form and less utility

[Deena] 3:00 pm: SF has a long history of being intertwined with erotica. Alien sex; machine sex; I’m not sure if it will change a lot, though I hope there will be more that is feminist-centric rather than patriarchal.

[widdershins] 3:01 pm: yep.. if I have anything to say about it

[Deena] 3:01 pm: Patriarchal sells, though, so it won’t go away.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:01 pm: Good for you, widder! Bring it on!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:01 pm: yes…I believe that will happen Deena, if women write their true experiences and not the ideals bequeathed them by their patriarchal upbringing

[chibiBoo] 3:01 pm: what is a good starting point on researching BDSM?

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: On my shelf are SM101 and Sensual Magic.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: And not reading LKH and believing that a safe word is “enough.” Gah.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:02 pm: I mentioned the erotica-readers.com site before. They have lots of amateur writers and some pros and all kinds of interests. I woudl say you couldn’t go wrong seeing what they’re writing and the feedback they’re getting. the feedback is incredibly, brutally honest

[joelysueburkhart] 3:03 pm: e.g. enough was supposedly her safe word. NO.

[Deena] 3:03 pm: I started by finding BDSM groups online and reading their rules for joining and how they define themselves.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:04 pm: If you’re gong to write sex, you have ot have a thicker skin than any other genre, because everyone knows sex and thinks they’re an expert    

[Deena] 3:04 pm: I’m not writing it, though. That was enough for me to get a good overview, but not enough to learn how to write it. Joely and Teresa have good ideas.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:05 pm: I don’t like writing bdsm because, like the lifestyle, it felt like a game to me. I deal with power relationships in writng that are not about granted power and the sub is not the one in control

[Deena] 3:06 pm: I’d like to very quickly stress that Joely’s advice not to use flowery euphemisms is a very, very good place to start writing erotica and erotic romance. No lances, no swords of power, no weeping cave of womanhood.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:06 pm: hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:06 pm: *dies* Absolutely no weeping caves!

[widdershins] 3:06 pm: ugh… spare me!

[widdershins] 3:07 pm: and no fading to a flowery sunset either

[Deena] 3:07 pm: And another pet peeve of mine, from an editorial point of view, is make sure that the logistics are possible.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: Erotica is too often showing us how to conform in the bedroom, not create, but that will change

[joelysueburkhart] 3:07 pm: Don’t tell me he’s hot…show me the quivering muscles, the quickening pulse, the heated skin…

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: yes, Deena…I liked your reviews in one of the Membra Disjectas

[Deena] 3:08 pm: I read a story where a young woman was watching two others, and she could see EVERYthing, despite the fact that one had her head buried in the other’s crotch. How is she seeing that, past the hair, and the head, and … it made no sense. Get poseable dolls, if necessary.

[Deena] 3:08 pm: Thanks, Teresa… I think that’s the one I’m STILL thinking about.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:08 pm: yes! Funny    

[joelysueburkhart] 3:09 pm: Ha, I need some poseable dolls. Are they tax deductible? *snorts*

[Deena] 3:09 pm: And don’t have your characters shrug off rape, or violence, or torture just because the love of their life is there to kiss it and make it better. AAGH.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: That’s because the author wasn’t IN the action but WATCHING it

[Deena] 3:09 pm: hee. Someone… I can’t recall who now, buys poseable dolls for each of her characters. Man, I was feeling the doll-lust. They’re beautiful.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: Yes, Deena, I read a disturbing one of those once

[Deena] 3:09 pm: Yes, exactly, Teresa!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:10 pm: If you ever find a Gregar doll, I want him!!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: Me too!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: But yeah, you’ve got dibs.

[PeachesNCream] 3:10 pm: there’s enough Gregar to go round…right?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Gregar should have brothers.

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Joely… you allow fanfiction?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: heh

[joelysueburkhart] 3:11 pm: @Peaches, @Deena, you guys are so oooo bad.

[riversway] 3:11 pm: I think the dolls came up in the costumeing session

[Deena] 3:11 pm: we are, yes… :highfives peaches::

[PeachesNCream] 3:12 pm: :highfive: Deena

[Deena] 3:12 pm: I’m sure it’s in a transcript somewhere, and if we get a member directory up, we can bug her about where she gets her dolls.

joelysueburkhart] 3:14 pm: Thank you everyone for coming!

[Deena] 3:14 pm: later everyone!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I have to run to a girl scouts event     It’s been great!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I’ll miss these panels

[chibiBoo] 3:15 pm: Thanks for the Con Deena!

[Deena] 3:15 pm: welcome, Chibi! It’s been lots of fun.

[riversway] 3:15 pm: thank you, a very interesting panel

[PTurner] 3:15 pm: Agree, as usual. Great panel today and throughout the con. Thanks!

[widdershins] 3:15 pm: Scoott was my fave presenter last night. but I’ve fallen in love all over again… Joely and Theresa… awesome, witty and knowledgable… irresistible combination

[joelysueburkhart] 3:16 pm: Aw, thanks widder! It was so much fun!

[Emily] 3:16 pm: thanks !!! great panel.

[Deena] 3:16 pm: We’ve had some amazing presenters.

[PeachesNCream] 3:17 pm: Awesome panel!

Death (from Sandman)

Comic book writers, long-time readers, and reviewers discussed the history of this special form of illustrated fiction and where it’s going now. Talked about favorites, what worked, what didn’t, and how to get your graphic novel published.

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write and publish graphic novels. I joined fellow authors Cindy Lynn Speer, Fraser Sherman on Friday, May 28th. Deena Fisher moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.
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Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write for GLBTQ markets. I joined fellow authors KL Richardsson & Kal Cobalt on Saturday, May 22nd. Barb Mountjoy moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.
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[Babs M] 7:02 pm: Welcome all to the session on GLBTQ… for those not familiar, that stands (I think) for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Trans and Queer…. Is that right?

[Oliver] 7:02 pm: No

[Babs M] 7:03 pm: Oliver?

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: q- QUESTIONING…

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: Sorry, didn’t mean to yell

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: A is for asexual…

[teresawymore] 7:03 pm: i’ve seen both for q

[kalcobalt ] 7:03 pm: So far I’ve seen GLBTQ where Q=queer, and GLBTQQ where the 2nd Q=questioning.

[teresawymore] 7:03 pm: i like queer, cause that’s what i call myself

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: Here in Michigan it is GLBTQA

[Babs M] 7:04 pm: Clearly a topic where discussion is warranted!

[kalcobalt] 7:04 pm: And it certainly isn’t an all-inclusive acronym, but it at least gives us an idea of the general territory.

[teresawymore] 7:04 pm: allies?

[Oliver] 7:04 pm: Yeah – I hear ya – I’m gender queer, so I understand completely…

[Babs M] 7:04 pm: Our panel is Kal Cobalt, KL Richardsson, and Teresa Wymore.

[kalcobalt] 7:05 pm: I am too, Oliver.

[Oliver] 7:05 pm: :up: Kal

[Babs M] 7:06 pm: Kal, would you like to introduce yourself?

[kalcobalt] 7:07 pm: Thanks! I’ve been writing gay male fiction for a couple of decades and have had it published over the last 10 years or so, particularly in Cleis Press anthologies. I’ve also had success with gay male and queer speculative fiction at Circlet Press, including my ebook ROBOTICA, which is all sexy robot stories of some queer bent or another.

[teresawymore] 7:08 pm: sexy robots…awesome

[kalcobalt] 7:08 pm: And I’ve just returned from a couple of conferences where I got a good idea of the state of GLBTQ fiction in SF/F.

[Babs M] 7:08 pm: Teresa, how about you?

[teresawymore] 7:08 pm: let’s see…I write mostly lesbian erotic fiction, both short and novel. I have a fantasy novel, Darklaw, coming out from DP soon. I have shorts in anthologies with Bella, Cleis, and DP. I think of my work as “lesbian” not f/f which might be an interesting discussion to have in this panel.

[Babs M] 7:09 pm: Indeed, Teresa. K.L. Richardsson?

[klrichardsson] 7:09 pm: I’m KL Richardsson, I write YA fantasy novels for Prizm Books, the YA line for Torquere Press. I wouldn’t say that my characters are omnisexual, but the world that I created doesn’t give a #$%^&* about who you pair with.

[Babs M] 7:10 pm: Nice place.

[klrichardsson] 7:11 pm: Well, it’s run by a telepathic empire, so I’m not really so sure.

[Babs M] 7:11 pm: So what IS the current state of GLBTQ lit in SF/F?

[klrichardsson] 7:12 pm: I think SF/F is definitely more open about it than any other genre.

[kalcobalt] 7:12 pm: I was surprised to find many doors much more open in the mainstream to GLBTQ lit in SF/F at the conference I just attended — and also surprised to find that there are some areas that still think having a gay character is Super Cutting Edge. It’s a lot more varied than I thought.

[teresawymore] 7:13 pm: I agree content is pretty open but it seems that lesbian fiction is not nearly so popular as gay, or m/m

[Babs M] 7:14 pm: Popular to readers?

[kalcobalt] 7:14 pm: Teresa, I wonder if that’s in the eye of the author? My perception, as a mostly m/m author, is that lesbian fiction is much more popular.

[klrichardsson] 7:14 pm: Hee. No worries. Yeah, Teresa, I’ve seen that too, unfortunately. There were theories as to why, but they all seemed prejudiced.

[teresawymore] 7:14 pm: some epubs have stopped even accepting f/f erotic it, and running through the lists, I always find 50 m/m for every f/f

[teresawymore] 7:16 pm: There’s a world of difference between mainstream and niche, though, isn’t there? mainstream likes having a gay character as long as he’s not the POV character

[Babs M] 7:16 pm: What’s the diff between f/f and lesbian?

[kalcobalt] 7:17 pm: Teresa, niche/mainstream definitely has some differences, but I’m not so sure about mainstream being that closed anymore. That hasn’t been my sense of late.

[klrichardsson] 7:17 pm: I agree with you completely there, Teresa. I think that’s why my YA novels are still niche, since the main characters in the (soon to be quartet) are all either gay or bi.

[teresawymore] 7:17 pm: about f/f…what I see is that f/f is written for non-identified lesbians, curious or bi who want a man somewhere nearby (boyfriend, watcher, thirds).

[klrichardsson] 7:18 pm: But isn’t most m/m (as opposed to gay literature) written by women, for women?

[teresawymore] 7:18 pm: yeah, niche markets allow anything, but sell little

[teresawymore] 7:18 pm: yes…which I still can’t quite figure out

[klrichardsson] 7:18 pm: The big print houses are all being a little leery now, though, no matter what you write. If you’re a new author, they don’t want to necessarily take the risk.

[teresawymore] 7:18 pm: m/m is booming

[kalcobalt] 7:19 pm: Well, most slash is written by women for women, but does it really matter who’s reading your stuff? If they like it, they like it, so what’s the problem?

[klrichardsson] 7:19 pm: I have no problems with anyone reading my stuff. Don’t care about the audience, as long as they read it.

[teresawymore] 7:20 pm: no problem but finding your market and selling can be confusing…one of my fave erotic lesbian books “Pirate Queen” is available on Ellora’s cave as the only lesbian book there.

[kalcobalt] 7:20 pm: Exactly, K.L.

[teresawymore] 7:20 pm: you have to scroll through 5 pages of m/m. No point in separating it out for one book but it gets hidden.

[kalcobalt] 7:21 pm: I think there’s always going to be confusion about finding your market, or readers finding your work, anytime you write in a smaller genre. Internet story sellers really help — the search function can probably mitigate the scrolling, for example.

[teresawymore] 7:22 pm: it used to until they threw all glbt into one category. If I recall it started out with lesbian separated out

[teresawymore] 7:22 pm: this is why it appears to be a shrinking market to me

[klrichardsson] 7:22 pm: The nice thing about epublishing, though, is that there is a market for everything. My books don’t sell a lot, but I can actually find a publisher.

[teresawymore] 7:22 pm: yes..this is a golden age in that way!

[klrichardsson] 7:23 pm: A friend of mine who is a decently established print author says that epublishing and small market may be the way of the future.

[klrichardsson] 7:23 pm: Especially in the GLBT field.

[teresawymore] 7:23 pm: I agree….and hope that’s true

[kalcobalt] 7:23 pm: Ditto, K.L. — I have no trouble finding markets for my work no matter how “out there” it is, it’s just a matter of finding the right publisher match for my stories. Which is the way of this industry no matter what you write, so.

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: As long as it’s written well!

[kalcobalt] 7:24 pm: Circlet Press, which focuses on erotic SF/F and publishes a lot of my stuff, has gone almost exclusively ebook at this point and they’re doing great.

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: I might have to check them out, Kal. Do they accept YA, or just adult?

[teresawymore] 7:24 pm: yes they have some great titles.

[kalcobalt] 7:24 pm: (btw that’s erotic SF/F of every stripe; Circlet’s a very openminded pblisher.)

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: Duh, erotic, nevermind.

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: My other, non YA persona would be interested in checking that publisher out, though.

[teresawymore] 7:25 pm: how does the non erotic glbtq sell compared to erotic?

[klrichardsson] 7:25 pm: (As I put on my other persona hat) My experience is that sexy sells better than plotty, but good plot helps good sex, and sells better than PWP.

[teresawymore] 7:25 pm: My focus is erotic, but i know that isn’t everybody :p

[klrichardsson] 7:26 pm: My focus is, for non-YA, usually the more romance-y, plotty stuff.

[kalcobalt] 7:26 pm: (K.L, please email me — I’ll happily give you some more details on Circlet.)

[teresawymore] 7:26 pm: honestly..YA must be hard to write!

[klrichardsson] 7:26 pm: My editor had a field day when I mentioned some stuff. I’m trying to keep it at a PG rating level, just because.

[Babs M] 7:27 pm: PWP?

[kalcobalt] 7:27 pm: Plot? What Plot?

[klrichardsson] 7:27 pm: Plot, what plot?

[teresawymore] 7:27 pm: hahahaha

[Babs M] 7:27 pm: Oh. LOL:red:

[klrichardsson] 7:28 pm: I think that’s why I stick to the YA. I don’t have to worry about the naughty bits being well written, since there aren’t any.

[kalcobalt] 7:28 pm: I find that stories where the sex and the plot can’t be separated from one another are both the most satisfying to read and what’s sought after most by the publishers I work with.

[klrichardsson] 7:28 pm: Exactly, Kal!

[kalcobalt] 7:28 pm: (when there’s erotic content involved, anyway.)

[teresawymore] 7:28 pm: always good advice

[teresawymore] 7:29 pm: there are some non epub that are heavyweights as far as quality lesbian erotica–bella books and bold strokes. I wish they’d go digital

[Babs M] 7:29 pm: What about the divisions between G, B, L, Q and T? IS the writing different for each?

[teresawymore] 7:29 pm: i hardly buy paper anymore

[klrichardsson] 7:29 pm: I’ve written G, B, and Q as questioning, and I haven’t really treated it as different.

[kalcobalt] 7:30 pm: Well, as an omnisexual pangendered author, I’ll bow out of that one as my focus not on the differences.

[klrichardsson] 7:30 pm: Ditto to what Kal said.

[kalcobalt] 7:30 pm: I like you, K.L.

[teresawymore] 7:31 pm: i wrote one m/m which will be out at DP down the road. Otherwise all lesbian. would B be the menage I see at epubs?

[teresawymore] 7:31 pm: did I spell that right? “menage”

[klrichardsson] 7:31 pm: Not necessarily. Soren, one of my boys, just likes both. Not together — well, maybe if you gave him the chance, but he is only 18.

[Babs M] 7:31 pm: mmhmm

[kalcobalt] 7:32 pm: B would be bisexual of any sort, not necessarily menage a trois tales.

[klrichardsson] 7:32 pm: I’ve never written serious menage of any gender content, just because the number of limbs confuses me.

[teresawymore] 7:32 pm: I havent’ read a menage but from the covers they all look m/m/f

[klrichardsson] 7:32 pm: That’s the most ’successful’ pairing.

[kalcobalt] 7:33 pm: K.L., I managed to write (and get published) a threesome once. It was hard. And it was m/m/m, so they aren’t all m/m/f…

[klrichardsson] 7:33 pm: As per Torquere Press. I don’t think they accept F/F/M.

[teresawymore] 7:33 pm: doesn’t sell?

[klrichardsson] 7:33 pm: I’ve seen m/m/m/m/m

[klrichardsson] 7:33 pm: Doesn’t sell as well.

[teresawymore] 7:33 pm: hahahaha!

[teresawymore] 7:34 pm: like adding blades to the razor, quantity makes everything better?

[klrichardsson] 7:34 pm: That particular novel just confused me.

[klrichardsson] 7:34 pm: More power to you for the attempt, but I can barely keep my “hes” straight with two.

[teresawymore] 7:34 pm: i don’t read much mainstream…do any of you find strong glbtq characters?

[kalcobalt] 7:35 pm: Yes!

[klrichardsson] 7:35 pm: I still love Marion Zimmer Bradleys “The Catch Trap.”

[kalcobalt] 7:35 pm: I highly recommend Charles Stross’s GLASSHOUSE for anyone interested in seeing really well-done alternate sexualities in a really great, steamy, hilarious, incisive mainstream SF novel.

[klrichardsson] 7:35 pm: And there are some good YA GLBTQ novels, like Hero and Alex Sanchez’s Rainbow Boys series.

[teresawymore] 7:36 pm: awesome

[klrichardsson] 7:36 pm: I mostly end up reading genre, in the end.

[kalcobalt] 7:36 pm: And there’s the seminal James Tiptree Jr. Award winners yearly, always a good place to go.

[teresawymore] 7:37 pm: i’ve been a little cyncal aboutmainstream but maybe i should plunge back in

[klrichardsson] 7:37 pm: How do the Lambda award winners do as far as quality of writing?

[kalcobalt] 7:37 pm: I’m not sure, I have a bit of a beef with the Lambdas ever since they decided the orientation of the author means more than the orientations depicted in the books, as far as who they hand out awards to. But I digress.

[teresawymore] 7:37 pm: yep

[klrichardsson] 7:38 pm: I guess that would be me three?

[klrichardsson] 7:38 pm: Next semester, I jump into the world of medieval queer theory as part of my PhD program, so I’m very excited about that.

[teresawymore] 7:39 pm: i did my senior thesis on medieval sexuality

[klrichardsson] 7:39 pm: Really, Teresa? You’re my new best friend.

[teresawymore] 7:39 pm: 14th century, actually

[Oliver] 7:39 pm: :up: I have a BIG beef with Lambda – the whole fiasco of lst year put a nasty taste in my mouth… more

[Oliver] 7:39 pm: Aren’t there any other GLBTQA support for authors? I mean, what is up with that?

[klrichardsson] 7:39 pm: None that I know of, Oliver. I know, for sci fi, there’s the Gaylactic Spectrum awards.

[teresawymore] 7:40 pm: the epic awards for epublishing started off with categories for lesbian dn gay but that all went to hell after year one.

[klrichardsson] 7:40 pm: And we won’t go into RWA.

[Oliver] 7:40 pm: Why isn’t the GLBTQA community coming together for support of the GLBTAQ writers effort? Where are the book contests? Book reviewers?

[teresawymore] 7:40 pm: amen

[klrichardsson] 7:40 pm: There are review websites. Rainbow Reviews is a good site. Elisa Rolle.

[kalcobalt] 7:40 pm: Oliver, I truly don’t get it. Since I write mainly gay male or gay male-slanted queer fic, this means I’ll likely never be eligible for a Lambda (I’m female-bodied and have no plans to change that). That seems just as unfair to me as any other discrimination against someone on basis of gender/orientation/sexuality.

[teresawymore] 7:41 pm: outer alliance

[kalcobalt] 7:41 pm: Rainbow Reviews, yes. The Outer Alliance, also. There’s a lot out there.

[klrichardsson] 7:41 pm: Outer Alliance! Whoo!

[teresawymore] 7:41 pm: small but chugging along with some impressive supporters

[Oliver] 7:41 pm: I was in on the grass roots effort for RWA’s Rainbow writers – but even with that, things haven’t changed much… they’ll take my gay money, but won’t give me member rites…

[kalcobalt] 7:41 pm: For folks who don’t know, by the way, Outer Alliance is specifically geared toward GLBTQ speculative fiction authors. Great resource.

[klrichardsson] 7:42 pm: That’s how I found out about this Con.

[kalcobalt] 7:42 pm: Same, K.L.

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: How do you create a major GBLTQ character for SF who is marketable but true to their GBLTQ-ness, both personally and politically?

[klrichardsson] 7:43 pm: I think Lynn Flewelling’s done a decent job, Widdershins.

[teresawymore] 7:43 pm: my opinion—avoid the politics

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: I agree

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: about Lynn

[klrichardsson] 7:43 pm: Make the novel not about the GLBTQ, and more about this wonderful person who happens to be GLBTQ who has awesome adventures.

[teresawymore] 7:44 pm: make your character queer as you want, but dont’ get self-conscious and explain her in the melieu

[teresawymore] 7:44 pm: at least, that’s what I like to read

[kalcobalt] 7:45 pm: Agreed, K.L. – and I don’t think that’s about minimizing the GLBTQ aspect, but about engaging a wider readership outside of the fringe element in question. I think you’d do it the same way you would any character who was centrally something most readers aren’t.

[Oliver] 7:44 pm: It was mentioned earlier GLBTQA SF/F is more open now. In what? Old school cookie cutter NY pubs? Or in genres across the board?

[Oliver] 7:44 pm: sorry

[teresawymore] 7:45 pm: in niche…totally open. in mainstream…i really haven’t seen POV characters yet

[klrichardsson] 7:45 pm: I think in genres across the board, Oliver. There will always be player-haters, but I’ve come across a number of GLBTQ characters from Tor, from Bantam, from the big powerhouses of SFF

[klrichardsson] 7:45 pm: Exactly, Kal! And Teresa.

[teresawymore] 7:46 pm: have a friend who reads lots of mysetries and is impressed at how often she runs across lgbt characters…all the POV’s friend!

[kalcobalt] 7:46 pm: Oliver, SF/F seems really open right now. The conference I just went to, which is a mainstream SF/F con, had panels on all kinds of alt sexuality, and those were always filled to capacity with readers both desperate for new left-of-mainstream reading and to share what they’d enjoyed reading so far.

[klrichardsson] 7:46 pm: Argh!

[teresawymore] 7:46 pm: she feels like she’s on the cutting edge

[Babs M] 7:47 pm: All friends but none of them the lover?

[klrichardsson] 7:47 pm: With genre’s tendency to head jump, it’s not always easy to find the protag anyway.

[teresawymore] 7:47 pm: i do think the readers want it but the publishers are hesitant?

[Oliver] 7:47 pm: Is it possible that ff or lesbian fic isn’t as popular b/c they have sequestered themselves away from the rest of the alpha bet soup (publishing wise?) No offence

[kalcobalt] 7:47 pm: But yeah, there’s still that hefty contingent of folks who think “gender and sexuality” = “feminism and G/L characters,” when in sci fi the field is so much more open to so much more than that.

[klrichardsson] 7:48 pm: I honestly can’t answer the lesbian literature question, unfortunately. I know there’s a lot of debate on it, and not all of it complimentary.

[teresawymore] 7:48 pm: males still vastly outnumber female protag in any genre…i really think it’s a woman issue more than a queer one

[teresawymore] 7:48 pm: making strides

[kalcobalt] 7:49 pm: I think it’s a situation where YMMV.

[klrichardsson] 7:49 pm: Everyone needs to read Butler’s Gender Trouble, Kal. And that’s a good point, Teresa. I like that idea a lot better!

[teresawymore] 7:49 pm: i don’t think it’s the lesbian writers….as i mentioned some epubs have stopped taking subs from f/f

[teresawymore] 7:50 pm: check out lesbian fiction forum someday to meet and see the writers and activity!

[Oliver] 7:50 pm: What is YMMV? And panel – do you have websites/twitters?

[klrichardsson] 7:51 pm: Your mileage may vary. and http://www.klrichardsson.com

[teresawymore] 7:51 pm: blog, FB, and twitter…see my page on this site or google teresa wymore

[klrichardsson] 7:51 pm: Oh, and the Facebook.

[kalcobalt] 7:52 pm: Sorry — your mileage may vary. And yes, I’m at http://www.kalcobalt.com and a blog at http://www.kalcobalt.com/blog — @kalcobalt on Twitter, and “kalcobalt” on just about any other social network…I barely live in the real world anymore.

[widdershins] 7:52 pm: @Therese … do you know why they’ve stopped… e pubs that is?

[teresawymore] 7:52 pm: ha, me too kal

[teresawymore] 7:52 pm: i saw one make the change and they posted it was about sales…i don’t recall which press it was

[teresawymore] 7:53 pm: just stroll through the lgbt listings on any epublisher and be amazed

[Oliver] 7:53 pm: I have been asked to write more trans stuff — as much as I am asked to write steam punk. I love the angst and deep story for f2M and m2F — why haven’t more folks written these characters?

[kalcobalt] 7:53 pm: Oliver, check out Circlet Press! Lots of TG stuff over there (and f/f, for the record), both being published and asked for.

[teresawymore] 7:54 pm: i’ve never read trans…that would be quite a feat to get inside the head of someone making that transition

[klrichardsson] 7:54 pm: I’ve read a couple novels from Torquere about trans characters, but it isn’t common. I wonder if that’s the final frontier in GLBTQ?

[teresawymore] 7:54 pm: yes…circlet’s always been a strong supoprter of f/f!

[kalcobalt] 7:55 pm: I don’t think writing trans is any harder than writing any other character experiencing a world you’re unfamiliar with — it’s all the same process of seeing the world through their eyes.

[Babs M] 7:55 pm: Oliver sent me material on this but I’d like to ask the panel–can women write m/m stuff? and vice versa? What tips do you have?

[kalcobalt] 7:55 pm: KL, I like to think of it more like the midpoint frontier.

[teresawymore] 7:55 pm: i don’t think as a writer that I would understand that body discomfort as trans people have mentioned

[kalcobalt] 7:56 pm: Why the heck not? I’ve written m/m for ages, and I’m female-bodied and used to be female-identified. I know tons of women who write m/m, and plenty of guys who write f/f, and plenty of people in between who write all kinds.

[teresawymore] 7:56 pm: in a way, trans is NOT about omnisexuality or genderqueer but the flip side of gender-identified

[kalcobalt] 7:56 pm: There’s a great anthology called Switch Hitters, with lesbians writing gay male stories and gay men writing lesbian stories, but it goes so much further than that.

[teresawymore] 7:57 pm: not the difference but the discomfort..that’s what I don’t feel

[klrichardsson] 7:57 pm: Yeah, I’m female-bodied and identified, and I don’t have an issue with it.

[kalcobalt] 7:57 pm: Teresa, no, you’re right, it’s not about omni or queer; it’s not about the flip side of gender-identified either, though — it’s about gender identification with the non-birth gender.

[Oliver] 7:57 pm: Circlet press – I was always under the impression they were f/f only. I’ll have to check them out.

Question: Is there a forum/message board/ yahoo group — something for GLBTQA writers to get together and help each other? Or is this something I’m gonna have to create? :rolleyes: (I believe in support and I really feel us GLBTQA authors are lacking a home base of sorts…)

[widdershins] 7:57 pm: Yah Ollie

[kalcobalt] 7:58 pm: Oliver, they are totally pansexual, have a call out now for third-gender stories, and everything they’ve published of mine has been m/m. Check ‘em out!

[kalcobalt] 7:58 pm: As for GLBTQA writers, I love The Outer Alliance right now for community and support.

[teresawymore] 7:58 pm: It seems gender-identified–a female who feels herself male identifies as male. if gender didn’t matter, no trans is necessary.

[klrichardsson] 7:59 pm: Gender, as a socially constructed/artificial label, does really get in the way of things.

[teresawymore] 7:59 pm: amen

[kalcobalt] 7:59 pm: Tell me about it, K.L….

[teresawymore] 7:59 pm: gender does not equal sex

[Oliver] 7:59 pm: preach it brother — sorry had too…

[kalcobalt] 7:59 pm: Teresa, exactly — I wasn’t saying gender didn’t matter, I was saying the opposite.

[klrichardsson] 7:59 pm: Outer Alliance is starting a list of friendly/nonfriendly pubs, and has a great group of supportive writers.

[teresawymore] 7:59 pm: oh

[klrichardsson] 8:00 pm: Hee.

[teresawymore] 8:00 pm: lesbian fiction forum has a list like this and calls too.

[Babs M] 8:00 pm: Gender does not equal sex?

[klrichardsson] 8:00 pm: There’s a YAGLBTQ author list.

[kalcobalt] 8:00 pm: No, Babs. Sex is physical. Gender is identity.

[klrichardsson] 8:00 pm: What Kal said.

[kalcobalt] 8:01 pm: Ooh, KL, do you have a link to that list? I’ve been interested in playing in YA eventually.

[klrichardsson] 8:01 pm: glbtqYAwriters on yahoogroups.

[kalcobalt] 8:01 pm: Thanks!

[PTurner] 8:02 pm: Any stereotypes you’re seeing lately?

[teresawymore] 8:03 pm: I’d say not so much about queer as about women & sex

[kalcobalt] 8:03 pm: I’m seeing a refreshing lack of sterotypes in the fiction I’m reading lately.

[PTurner] 8:03 pm: Not my original question, but I forgot that one. I’m wondering if there are any “new” stereotypes.

[teresawymore] 8:03 pm: chick lit has ‘em

[PTurner] 8:04 pm: Good to hear. I’m new to writing/reading m/m and I don’t want to make any mistakes.

[kalcobalt] 8:04 pm: Good luck, PTurner!

[klrichardsson] 8:04 pm: I think the genre’s finally getting over the seme/uke (bottom/top) thing from yaoi/Japanese Boy’s Love lit.

[widdershins] 8:04 pm: @Therese “lesbian fiction forum has a list like this and calls too” is the end of the sentence missing?

[teresawymore] 8:04 pm: still all those fetish anthologies around

[kalcobalt] 8:05 pm: Fetish is a stereotype?

[teresawymore] 8:05 pm: sorry…meant that lff has lists about friendly publishers

[klrichardsson] 8:05 pm: BDSM still festers a lot of bad stereotypes.

[teresawymore] 8:05 pm: fetish is full of them don’t you think?

[kalcobalt] 8:05 pm: Uh, as a healthy BDSM practitioner, I object…a lot of the fic does that, yes, but a lot of it doesn’t.

[klrichardsson] 8:05 pm: Yeah, I meant the fic, Kal.

[kalcobalt] 8:06 pm: Teresa, not really…fetishes are a practice, not a stereotype.

[teresawymore] 8:06 pm: not talking about real life but the lit describing it is pretty bad in my experince of the real deal

[kalcobalt] 8:06 pm: KL, so did I — there’s plenty of healthy BDSM fic out there.

[Babs M] 8:06 pm: oliver?

[Oliver] 8:06 pm: You know what cheeses me off? Signing up for a program on line and they insist I choose between male and female….:nono: as for YAGLBTQA — my gawd! What a mouthful! Talk about alphabet soup! Campbells wouldn’t touch that with a fork… emmm, I mean spoon… As for sex/gender- what ever — I go with orientation and leave it be… oh – comment – stereo types – I’m p!ssed that effeminate men are black listed – what is my gay world without my gurls? They are a staple as June Cleaver is!

[teresawymore] 8:06 pm: but in creating fetish stories, the roles are assigned and carried out without developing character much

[kalcobalt] 8:07 pm: Oliver, thank you kindly. I hate the M/F radio buttons too. I want to kill them with fire.

[kalcobalt] 8:07 pm: Teresa, I’ve written fetish stories that weren’t like that — I think it’s another YMMV thing. There’s bad characterization and good characterization in all genres, and I don’t think fetish stories are unduly poor.

[klrichardsson] 8:07 pm: That’s why I really wish we could all just be people. Why do we need to be gendered? Manly men? Girly girls? All stereotypes do is hurt people, even if it does make it easier for some writers to create stories.

[kalcobalt] 8:08 pm: I love you, K.L.

[teresawymore] 8:08 pm: i like manly girls

[Babs M] 8:08 pm: ha! my daughter is a manly girl…

[Oliver] 8:08 pm: The sign of a true talented writer is to take a stereotype and embellish it – breathing new, fresh life into it…

[teresawymore] 8:08 pm: i did read a terrific bdsm in the fairy tales anthology put out by circlet recently

[teresawymore] 8:09 pm: i think that was a new author, too…hope to see more of her writing

[klrichardsson] 8:09 pm: I’d love to see that rec, Teresa. I ‘ll have to check that out. I love fairy tale anthologies.

[Babs M] 8:10 pm: I’d like to thank our panel, Teresa Wymore, Kal Cobalt and KL Richardsson for joining us this evening for a truly informative and wide-ranging discussion!

[klrichardsson] 8:10 pm: It’s been awesome. Thank you for the excellent moderation, Babs.

[kalcobalt] 8:11 pm: Thank you, Babs! And thanks to all who came by — this is my last Coyotecon panel and I’m glad to have seen you all.

[Babs M] 8:11 pm: My pleasure. You all did a great job.

[widdershins] 8:11 pm: One for the road…. favourite GLBTQ character?

[Oliver] 8:11 pm: Thanks — I enjoyed this

[widdershins] 8:11 pm: SF character

[klrichardsson] 8:11 pm: Danilo Ardais from the Darkover books.

[riversway] 8:11 pm: thanks great panel

[kalcobalt] 8:11 pm: Widder: the guy in the novel I’m going to write.

[teresawymore] 8:11 pm: kl…Quatre Grey in Like a Queen

[klrichardsson] 8:12 pm: Or maybe Alec from Lynn Flewelling’s books

[teresawymore] 8:12 pm: thanks!

[widdershins] 8:12 pm: @Kal…. hafta buy it then!

[klrichardsson] 8:12 pm: Thanks, Teresa!

[riversway] 8:12 pm: gee Ollie didn’t know you could be soo passionate:D

[kalcobalt] 8:12 pm: Aww, thanks Widder

[Oliver] 8:12 pm: :red:

[kalcobalt] 8:12 pm: OK, it’s dinnertime in this neck of the woods — I hope to see you all around the ‘net! Enjoy the rest of the conference!

[teresawymore] 8:12 pm: bye

[Oliver] 8:13 pm: Yeah – what can I say? I’m a passionate queer for my queers…

[klrichardsson] 8:13 pm: Fare thee well, all. Happy reading!

[teresawymore] 8:13 pm: we’ve got another weekend…a few more panels for me

[PTurner] 8:13 pm: Thanks!

[widdershins] 8:13 pm: @Therese… great… enjoy your company

[riversway] 8:13 pm: @ Ollie ……good for you:kiss:

[Oliver] 8:13 pm: I’ll be here — I’ll be lost when June rolls around…

[teresawymore] 8:13 pm: thanks widdershins

[widdershins] 8:14 pm: @Ollie … me too

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write transformative sex. I joined fellow authors Anna Black, Joely Sue Burkhart, David Sklar on Saturday, May 22nd. Deena Fisher moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.

———————————–

[Deena] 1:03 pm: Welcome, everyone, to transformative sex with Anna Black, David Sklar, Joely Sue Burkhart, and Teresa Wymore. We’ll have everyone introduce themselves first, and then, I think they should start by telling us what transformative sex is to them.

[AnnaB] 1:04 pm: I’m Anna Black. I write primarily erotic short fiction. I also write erotic romance for Ellora’s cave.

[David Sklar] 1:05 pm: I’m David Sklar; my novella Shadow of the Antlered Bird was published by Drollerie in 2008. My works have also appeared in Space & Time, Paterson Literary Review, Cabinet des Fees, and I’ve got upcoming work in Strange Horizons.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:06 pm: I’m Joely Sue Burkhart and I write romantic SF/F and erotic romance for Drollerie Press, Samhain Publishing, and Carina Press.

[teresawymore] 1:06 pm: Teresa Wymore here…I write primarily lesbian erotic fiction but many subgenres, both short and novel. Darklaw will be out shortly from DP.

[Deena] 1:07 pm: I haven’t read Anna’s work yet, but I know all of the rest of you use sex to do some interesting revelations / transformations with your characters. Could you talk about what transformative sex means to you?

[joelysueburkhart] 1:08 pm: Transformation means CHANGE. Sex is an intimate vulnerable part of the human experience — what better way to reveal deep characterization?

[teresawymore] 1:10 pm: yep Joely…and erotica has been limited in it because it’s viewed as a means to an end–a genre defined by its effect rather than its storytelling. This focus on its effect makes authors afraid to risk personal revelation, leading to procedural writing that plays into myths and stereotypes about sex. Doesn’t allow transformation of character or reader. Erotica has great potential to reveal character through interplay of public and private information that no other genre dares to embrace.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:10 pm: If a reader can skip your sex scene and not miss something crucial, then it’s not a transformative scene.

[AnnaB] 1:11 pm: I agree with, Joely. The transformation of my characters is important to me and I see the sexual act as one way of bringing about that change.

[David Sklar] 1:12 pm: I’m still trying to find the words.

[David Sklar] 1:12 pm: Because the idea of “transformative sex” can mean so many things.

[teresawymore] 1:12 pm: Transformative for both character and the reader

[joelysueburkhart] 1:13 pm: As a reader, I skip a sex scene when it’s too much anatomy and not enough emotion.

[teresawymore] 1:13 pm: totally

[David Sklar] 1:13 pm: You know, it can be emotionally transformative, or it can be physically transformative (check out Sarah Avery’s Atlantis Cranks Need Not Apply for a great example of that), and the transformation can be in any direction–for the better, for the worse, for the not really sure but we’ll find out eventually.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:14 pm: Boundaries should be falling left and right, making these characters shaky, vulnerable, near tears, EMOTIONAL. That’s what makes a good scene for me.

[David Sklar] 1:14 pm: For me, it’s only really worth writing about sex if it is integral to the story.

[teresawymore] 1:15 pm: nice point about the direction … doesn’t it seem that when writing an erotic story, the sex is supposed to be pleasurable and the outcome satisfaction, or the story is seen as failure.

[David Sklar] 1:15 pm: This results in a lot of stories with kind of twisted sex that’s clearly described, and healthier sex that happens “offscreen”

[teresawymore] 1:15 pm: if it’s transformational and character revealing, it’s not about pleasure all the time

[joelysueburkhart] 1:16 pm: I like what Anna does with her sex scenes — she treats each one like an individual hero’s journey.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:16 pm: There are dark moments in each scene, inner caves that must be explored, before you can return with the elixir.

[AnnaB] 1:17 pm: I try to treat my sex scenes like any other scene. There should be something both or one of the characters wants, obstacles to that goal and some sort of
resolution.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:18 pm: Something is at stake. At any point they might have to abandon the quest. That raises the emotion to a new high.

[AnnaB] 1:18 pm: When I plot my stories (and I’m definitely a plotter) I try to keep the Hero’s Journey in mind for not only the external and internal journey of the characters, but also
their emotional journerys, which, since I write erotic romance, involves sex.

[David Sklar] 1:19 pm: Responding to the “direction” comment — yes, I’ve got a piece coming out in Drollerie’s Straying from the Path in which the heroine’s journey involves a sexual
encounter with a sorcerer who isn’t a good person, doesn’t care about her, and has his own motivations which aren’t at all apparent.

[AnnaB] 1:19 pm: As Joely noted, there should be dark moments, ordeals, rewards, setbacks. The movement toward sex should not be a smooth one.

[teresawymore] 1:20 pm: Anna, curious….and is the sex itself always smooth and positive?

[AnnaB] 1:20 pm: No, it’s not. And it shouldn’t be. But I do write erotic romance and there are some expectations when it comes to romantic aspects of it.

[David Sklar] 1:20 pm: The story in “Straying” has a scene in which the POV character has sex that is pleasurable in the moment, but she’s not in control of her faculties. When she wakes up in the morning and sees how her senses were deceived, there is a strong, very negative emotional response.

[Deena] 1:21 pm: Joely, you’ve written sex scenes that reflect transformation internally, the vulnerability, the emotion; and some that demonstrate an outward transformation that reflects the inward. I think that happens in the stories all of you tell, actually. Does speculative fiction make writing transformative sex scenes easier?

[joelysueburkhart] 1:21 pm: Deena, it’s definitely more visible to the reader when a physical, dramatic transformation is made. But it can be done. I hope that anyone who reads Dear Sir will see the physical transformation that Rae is going through, moving step by step closer to the person she is at her core.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:22 pm: She’s not going to “change shape” like Isabella in BD [Beautiful Death] for example, but she’s changing, and it’s dramatic and very fearful for her.

[teresawymore] 1:22 pm: My Darklaw characters aren’t changed by the sex so much as the sex reveals their true characters..the ones emerging as they become gods. In other words … transforming isn’t because of sex but shown by sex.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:22 pm: Anna, I think that first scene in the Emissary shows that. He’s so hard, so determined to break her. It’s not “pleasurable” in the true romance sense of sex, but whoa. What a journey she takes him on!

[AnnaB] 1:24 pm: And when I think of something not being pleasurable I’m not just thinking about the physical aspects but the emotional aspects also. It can “feel” good but that doesn’t mean the emotions the characters are feeling are necessarily in synch.

[David Sklar] 1:24 pm: I don’t usually write that clearly about smooth and positive sex. It comes up more clearly when there is a conflict, a challenge, a nuance.

[teresawymore] 1:25 pm: Me too. Sex is character for me. If my characters are manipulative and controlling, so is the sex.

[AnnaB] 1:25 pm: Thanks, Joely! I was definitely trying to take the hero in that story on a journey of discovery.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:25 pm: A smooth, gentle, non-transformative scene can be soooo powerful if placed correctly. A beta reader helped me make Return to Shanhasson so much more powerful with her suggestion of a simple, non-violent, non-transformative scene at the
end.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:25 pm: It was like the cherry on top.

[Deena] 1:25 pm: Do you all plot out your sex scenes? You know what you want the characters to feel at the end of it, but how do you determine this one includes a spanking, and this one includes something else?

[David Sklar] 1:26 pm: The story in “Straying” has a scene in which the POV character has sex that is pleasurable in the moment, but she’s not in control of her faculties. When she wakes up in the morning and sees how her senses were deceived, there is a strong, very negative emotional response.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:26 pm: Pretty much, yes, I do plot fairly heavily unless it’s a short piece. If I don’t know “why” the sex scene should happen in this exact spot, I make a note and skip it. Until I do. Sometimes I find later it wasn’t needed — I didn’t have anything to reveal.

[teresawymore] 1:27 pm: My characters take me there. I don’t plan anything. That’s why I don’t/can’t write for most erotic markets that cater to fetish

[joelysueburkhart] 1:27 pm: If it’s just the act, fine, the characters can do it off page all they want.

[AnnaB] 1:28 pm: I usually have some idea as to where I want the characters to wind up once the sex is over (because the sex is part of their movement through the story, both
internally and externally) but there are always surprises when I write a sex scene. Which is great.

[David Sklar] 1:28 pm: In this particular story, in this particular scene, there were things that had to be accomplished in order for the magic to work. And they were contradictory things–things that were way out of the range of what I would consider acceptable.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:28 pm: Oh, yes, Anna, I love those moments of surprises!

[teresawymore] 1:29 pm: writing internal conflicts is the essence of a good writer to me, even whenthey stray from the cultural norms (or maybe especially)

[AnnaB] 1:29 pm: As to whether I include something like spanking in a scene, I will say that if I’m writing a story for an anthology that’s about spanking, then yes, there will be spanking.

[David Sklar] 1:30 pm: One of my beta readers really couldn’t comment on the story at all beyond that she was uncomfortable about the sex in the story. I wrote back that the sex in that story made me uncomfortable.

[teresawymore] 1:30 pm: I see these lists at every epress about subjects they don’t allow. business decision that often conlficts with art

[joelysueburkhart] 1:30 pm: For me, the spanking (or other sexual element) has to be integral to the character. Why does he/she need it? What does it show? It’s not just the act.

[teresawymore] 1:30 pm: that’s awesome David !

[David Sklar] 1:31 pm: @Teresa: I think these lists go back to what you were saying before about erotica being perceived as product rather than literature.

[teresawymore] 1:31 pm: yes i agree

[teresawymore] 1:31 pm: it’s a shame to turn art into utility

[AnnaB] 1:31 pm: Defintely. I have a story coming out in the summer about spanking, but the spanking is very integral to both characters and is more about their relation to each other
than just the act itself.

[David Sklar] 1:32 pm: Thanks teresa.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:32 pm: It goes back to the need/ fear/ want aspect of the hero’s journey, which I love.

[AnnaB] 1:33 pm: I also address the need/fear/want aspects when it comes to my sex scenes.

[David Sklar] 1:33 pm: Expanding, I think the commodification of erotica pretty much prohibits certain things that are directly related to the darker side of sex.

[teresawymore] 1:34 pm: On my site I have a recent post about just this issue “writing erotica: do you know the sex code?” So i won’t info dump here, but please take a look if you want more detail about how erotic writing is limited in a way other genres aren’t.

[Deena] 1:34 pm: Teresa, what are the things that aren’t allowed that you feel stifle art? Should there not be rules on what is and isn’t allowed? There are things I’d have a hard time publishing because of legal concerns.

[teresawymore] 1:34 pm: If sex reveals characters, it has to be dark sometimes

[David Sklar] 1:35 pm: I liked that post–I read it just after I put up my post telling people to come to this panel.

[teresawymore] 1:35 pm: Totally Deena…i understand the business reasons…turning readers off..i’m talking about a more general cultural transformatin that we need to see sex in freer ways

[teresawymore] 1:36 pm: I mean…i can read an explicit scene about a murder–that’s illegal. But an explicit rape scene must be off page. Seems odd to me

[joelysueburkhart] 1:37 pm: I think you can show the darker side of sex/character without getting into trouble with the legal department, but it is harder. I mean, Gregar isn’t exactly a nice guy. *cough* But he’s one of everyone’s favorite characters.

[David Sklar] 1:37 pm: One friend has noted that really _explicity_ describing sex, rather than describing it in emotional terms can make it feel more clinical, less positive.

[teresawymore] 1:37 pm: So, I see these limits of sex being consensual, adult, and non scatalogical making sense because readers get turned off. But really, you see it in real life, and on the web.

[teresawymore] 1:38 pm: Do you think men and women write sex differently?

[Deena] 1:38 pm: And do men and women read sex differently?

[David Sklar] 1:38 pm: The story I was talking about before, I don’t think I could have sold it to a sex-positive erotica market, even though the sex was central and clearly described.

[David Sklar] 1:38 pm: Oh, I’m still on the previous question, but that one has a lot of potential.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:39 pm: I think every person reads sex differently, bringing their own fears, misconceptions, and desires into the mix. Someone will read a scene and LOVE it; others will hate it.

[teresawymore] 1:39 pm: I’m all for arousing stories but I wish there was more exploration of darker sex

[teresawymore] 1:40 pm: Joely, agree…and erotic fiction is SUPPPOSED ot be arousing not challenging, isn’t it? I meanit seems that way or there would be more variety

[teresawymore] 1:40 pm: Interesting deena

[David Sklar] 1:41 pm: …that the sex in the scene I described wasn’t strictly consensual, so it was, arguably rape, even though there wasn’t any force involved, because she wasn’t in a position to give meaningful consent. So if someone were reading it to be turned on–well, they get what they want until the illusion is burst, and then they see what they were responding to. I don’t normally mess with my readers in that particular way, but this story required it.

[Deena] 1:41 pm: You always hear that men want Slot A filled with Tab B, not emotion, but I’m wondering if the widening of the genre/art, the inclusion of women, is actually improving it for everyone. Maybe men didn’t know they could agitate for something besides slot sex.

[teresawymore] 1:42 pm: David…I need to read that one

[joelysueburkhart] 1:42 pm: I think the best sex scenes should be both arousing and challenging. How better to touch and affect your reader than to make them question their own responses?

[David Sklar] 1:42 pm: Teresa–you’ve got a story in Straying too, right? I think I stumbled on your first page while clearing off my desk.

[teresawymore] 1:42 pm: Deena…I wonder too…myths go both ways

[AnnaB] 1:42 pm: That’s a good point, Joely.

[David Sklar] 1:43 pm: Yes, well said Joely.

[David Sklar] 1:43 pm: And thanks.

[teresawymore] 1:43 pm: David, yes, Anthem–rather dark but not erotic

[Deena] 1:43 pm: Straying will be out by the end of the month, as will a few other goodies that have been languishing due to my fractured attention span.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:43 pm: I gotta say, some of the best scenes I’ve written, I was scared to death of.

[teresawymore] 1:43 pm: Oh Joely that’s the best I love reading that kind

[teresawymore] 1:43 pm: I’ve run into people who get angry at you for challenging them!

[joelysueburkhart] 1:44 pm: Oh, yeah. Hate what they fear in themselves, right?

[teresawymore] 1:44 pm: Anthem crosses that taboo worse than sex—cannibalism

[teresawymore] 1:44 pm: yes joely…many readers want it easy

[David Sklar] 1:44 pm: I had a story in college that made me a pariah, because I dealt with serious issues in a humorous tone.

[David Sklar] 1:45 pm: This one started with the frog prince and took it in the direction of a kiss that turned a girl into a doormat.

[teresawymore] 1:45 pm: You make an art of irreverence!

[David Sklar] 1:45 pm: Many people saw what I was doing, but not why, or that it was intentional.

[David Sklar] 1:46 pm: Um…thanks?

[teresawymore] 1:46 pm: hahahaha

[David Sklar] 1:46 pm: I have a story coming out in another anthology this year that ends with a child taking candy from a stranger.

[David Sklar] 1:47 pm: Not an erotic story, I should hastily add.

[Deena] 1:47 pm: Oh, whew.

[teresawymore] 1:47 pm: david!

[David Sklar] 1:47 pm: I’m still trying to get to the stuff about men and women responding to sex differently.

[Deena] 1:48 pm: Can you guys walk us through writing a sex scene? What are the words you use for body parts if you’re not comfortable being too graphic? How do you work out the logistics of arms and legs and torsos?

[David Sklar] 1:48 pm: Um…I mentioned the candy because of the “irreverence,” not because of anything to do with sex.

[teresawymore] 1:48 pm: what about all this m/m written by women for women? I can’t wrap my head around that one.

[teresawymore] 1:48 pm: Oh i’m comforable being graphic

[widdershins] 1:48 pm: What’s your personal line between porn and erotica?

[unknown] Kushiel’s Dart by Jaquline Carey is an example of transformative sex in extreme (S&M) as one of the keys that drives the narrative

[joelysueburkhart] 1:49 pm: My favorite questions for a character: what do you NEED? What’s the WORST thing you think you might need? What sexual limits are you afraid of or challenged by? And then I know what my plot is.

[teresawymore] 1:49 pm: ooo the porn vs erotica question…never seen a resolution to that

[joelysueburkhart] 1:50 pm: Some people are going to call romance porn for women.

[widdershins] 1:50 pm: yeah that’s why I asked ‘personal’

[teresawymore] 1:50 pm: eye of the beholder, men vs women, physical vs emotional: all answers with points to be made

[teresawymore] 1:50 pm: Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever READ a porn book

[David Sklar] 1:51 pm: I look at porn for men, and I find it arousing but not erotic–does that make sense?

[joelysueburkhart] 1:51 pm: For me personally, if the only goal of a sex scene is to titilate, with no character development, no goal beyond the act, then it’s porn.

[teresawymore] 1:51 pm: much as I complain that most erotica seems like a porn transcript putting it in writing makes it very different from visual–for me anyway

[AnnaB] 1:51 pm: Porn is pretty much lacking in emotion, IMHO. It’s like watching monkeys have sex. That’s the way I see porn.

[teresawymore] 1:52 pm: I like some porn. porn doesn’t touch me emotionally, just in the hormones

[Deena] 1:52 pm: The porn I’ve read, it’s about gratification. The emotion is all greed. Mostly from a man’s point of view.

[David Sklar] 1:52 pm: When I was asked to write erotica for a Circlet Press anthology, I gave a lot of thought to that distinction, because I didn’t think of myself as an erotica writer, and I didn’t want to do it unless it was “meaningful”

[basletum] 1:52 pm: @Anna: What’s wrong with monkey sex? *ducks and runs*

[teresawymore] 1:52 pm: I don’t think about the people later like I do in erotica–like the rest of you say–emotions

[teresawymore] 1:53 pm: ahhh…money sex….

[AnnaB] 1:53 pm: Just not my thing, I’m afraid.

[teresawymore] 1:53 pm: (hahaha “monkey”)

[David Sklar] 1:53 pm: I’m not personally into monkeys.

[David Sklar] 1:53 pm: Too much like my kid.

[teresawymore] 1:54 pm: yeah…that’s interesting…monkeys don’t do it for me and neither do characters widely different fromhumans in sex scenes

[teresawymore] 1:54 pm: scifi sex

[AnnaB] 1:54 pm: However, the way bees have sex, now that’s something!

[David Sklar] 1:54 pm: I saw a fascinating thing on TV about cuttlefish sex a few weeks back.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:55 pm: Haha, Anna! I love the challenge of scifi sex. What would arouse a non-human?

[basletum] 1:55 pm: @teresa: Hey! Twi’leks are hot!

[teresawymore] 1:55 pm: I’m so limited

[barblucas] 1:56 pm: @teresa As a woman who writes M/M for other women, the allure is multifaceted. But to be brief, on a shallow level: if looking at one man is nice, two is nicer. More substantially, there are different power dynamics between two men (or two women) than with a man and a woman, and that’s what interests me in those sorts of stories

[Deena] 1:56 pm: I read a novel the name of which I can’t remember now, about a man who was stranded on an island with only monkeys for company. He fell in love with one, fathered a child with it, and watched another monkey dash the baby’s brains out on a tree. I think I was scarred for life.

[David Sklar] 1:56 pm: Apparently, the female can fertilize her eggs with sperm from more than one male, so after two cuttlefish have mated, the male will guard over the female to make sure no one else gets in.

[AnnaB] 1:56 pm: I’m actually on a panal at Wiscon called The Cultural Construction of Sexuality which is about that very thing, Joley. What is considered sexual and arousing in nonhuman cultures.

[teresawymore] 1:56 pm: wow..deena…david…i’m getting queasy

[teresawymore] 1:56 pm: hahahaha

[Deena] 1:56 pm: Yeah, sorry.

[David Sklar] 1:57 pm: In the scene they showed, another male pretended to be a female wanting to mate with the larger male, and while they were courting each other, he had sex with the female right under the larger male’s nose…er, beak.

[teresawymore] 1:57 pm: barb…interesting…the power dif I see absolutely

[joelysueburkhart] 1:57 pm: Scary, I think I saw something like that too, Deena!

[Deena] 1:57 pm: It was not a genial book.

[teresawymore] 1:57 pm: I write mostly f/f, tried on m/m, and the power i could write but was quite disturbed by trying to write about two peni and how they felt

[teresawymore] 1:57 pm: maybe i shouldn’t have bothered with the physical

[Deena] 1:57 pm: Barb, Teresa, do one or both of you want to talk about that power dynamic more?

[Caras Galadhon] 1:58 pm: @teresa & barb: As an addendum to women writing m/m for other women (and as another female writer of m/m for a female marketplace), I’m not so sure that it’s any different than writing m/f or f/f, in that it’s an exploration of interpersonal dynamics, and perhaps doesn’t need to be justified as anything more than that.

[barblucas] 1:58 pm: @ teresa There’s an interesting academic (but accessible) book called WARRIOR LOVERS, that looks at it from a sociological perspective. I have some issues with some of the argument, but it’s an interesting read.

[widdershins] 1:59 pm: There are beings that we don’t generally see /read having sex in mainstream publications, mythical creatures, elves etc… they seem to spring forth from the foreheads of …. why is that do you think?

[David Sklar] 1:59 pm: @ Caras, I think there’s a difference between writing a variety of relationships including m/m and a woman writing exclusively m/m for other women.

[teresawymore] 1:59 pm: ooo..love the power thing. Not bdsm but character dynamics.

[Deena] 2:00 pm: widder, because they’re props?

[Caras Galadhon] 2:00 pm: @Deena Oh, no. I’m just saying that in the larger literary world there is often bafflement over women writing m/m for other women. Perhaps “justify” is the
wrong word choice there.

[barblucas] 2:00 pm: For me, a lot of M/F erotica and romance often falls back on very traditional roles for each gender. How a hero/heroine (in romance terms) has to behave.

[teresawymore] 2:00 pm: I admit as a niche writing in a niche genre (lesbian is small part of erotica), I’m overwhelmed by the m/m boom.

[David Sklar] 2:00 pm: I haven’t read a lot of m/m by women for women–but I have a suspicion that it’s categorically different from f/f by men for men.

[Deena] 2:01 pm: Caras, I’ve seen that too.

[Deena] 2:01 pm: Why, David? “Categorically” different?

[teresawymore] 2:01 pm: I see how you can write the relationships but the actual experience of sex from a male POV I wonder about

[teresawymore] 2:01 pm: barb-yes!

[teresawymore] 2:02 pm: The f/f by men that I’ve read always includes a man watching or joining later.

[David Sklar] 2:02 pm: My Circlet story (sorry deena, I’ll get to your question in a bit) includes f/f, m/f, f-as-m/m-as-f, f/spirit, and f/sycamore tree…

[barblucas] 2:02 pm: If I’m dealing with M/M or F/F, there aren’t those same expectations. I particularly enjoy two alpha characters coming together and negotiating those waters. That applies to the M/F I like best too.

[Deena] 2:02 pm: Teresa, but then you get into “How do we write from any POV that’s not our own?”

[teresawymore] 2:02 pm: hahahaha! sycamore tree!

[widdershins] 2:02 pm: @Deena… possibly, but even where they are major characters I haven’t come across it much

[teresawymore] 2:02 pm: I agree Deena…that is a very interesting question, a post-modern question!

[David Sklar] 2:02 pm: …but the f/f is different in tone from either f/f by men for men or f/f by lesbians for lesbians.

[David Sklar] 2:03 pm: I had to think about it and finally decided that I was in fact writing f/f for straight and bisexual women.

[David Sklar] 2:03 pm: Which brings us to the science of erotica.

[David Sklar] 2:04 pm: Apparently, there’ve been studies that found out that men are more turned on by visual and auditory stimuli, while women are more turned on by the other senses.

[Deena] 2:04 pm: Widder mentions that she hasn’t seen descriptions of sexual activity between major characters who aren’t human. Honestly, I can’t recall any either, unless they were having sex with the female protag. Why is that?

[David Sklar] 2:05 pm: Which I think is why a lot of porn for men is in movies and photographs, while a lot of erotica for women is in books that allow the reader to imagine a more complete experience.

[Deena] 2:05 pm: David, and yet, Penthouse Letters springs to mind. Along with some really bad stuff I read in the back of a motorcycle mag in my brother-in-law’s bathroom when I was 18.

[David Sklar] 2:05 pm: Penthouse letters is certainly an example.

[David Sklar] 2:06 pm: I would argue there’s a good example of written porn vs written erotica, though I may take a while to get around to saying why, if someone doesn’t beat me to it.

[widdershins] 2:06 pm: @Deena…. yeah I checked out my brother’s porn too… really grossed me out, scarred me for months….. however, In F/F the reader (lesbian) expectation is that there will always be some sort of sex scene

[joelysueburkhart] 2:06 pm: Re: widder’s question, I think the human woman having sex with other beings is the fantasy. Not reading about two non-human characters having sex.

[David Sklar] 2:06 pm: Re nonhuman sex, I actually saw some on Deep Space Nine, which I totally didn’t expect.

[teresawymore] 2:07 pm: remind me, which episode David?

[Deena] 2:07 pm: Well, that means the F/F story I sent out this morning will die in flames, Widder.

[teresawymore] 2:07 pm: i say always expect sex

[joelysueburkhart] 2:07 pm: I hope not Deena! What do I know anyway?!?

[Deena] 2:07 pm: Heh. No biggie if it does. It was fun to write.

[widdershins] 2:07 pm: @Deena… oh dear …depends on your readership too

[teresawymore] 2:08 pm: for every rule and exception

[joelysueburkhart] 2:08 pm: There are so many fantasies to choose from — I just immediately thought of the human woman abducted by aliens, etc. fantasy.

[Deena] 2:08 pm: It’s okay… there’s a bit of fade to black. My husband laughed at me. I’m just not much good at writing explicit sex.

[teresawymore] 2:08 pm: I bet you could be

[Deena] 2:08 pm: I’m a little creeped out by the abduction fantasy… was reading one by Shiloh…someone… last night. Had to put it down when that was added to the abysmal
editing.

[Deena] 2:09 pm: I just need to read more stuff by you, Teresa.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: My final comment would be: if it’s making you afraid or uncomfortable, keep going! It’s probably going to be a fantastic scene.

[teresawymore] 2:09 pm: hahahaha!

[David Sklar] 2:09 pm: Forgive me if I misspell the names, but it was Kiera and Ohto. They were talking about how he always imitates humanoid forms, and she wanted to know what it was like when two changelings were together. And the story ended with him turning into something like light and surrounding her. It was beautiful, but they managed to do it in a way that wasn’t too erotic for star trek.

[teresawymore] 2:09 pm: good one joely

[teresawymore] 2:09 pm: oh right!

[Deena] 2:09 pm: I remember that one, David!

[basletum] 2:10 pm: while experimenting with erotic horror, I decided to see how far it could go before I creeped myself out. but the part that creeped me how was how far it actually went before it did.

[David Sklar] 2:10 pm: Thanks.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:10 pm: Thanks everyone for attending!

[Deena] 2:10 pm: Thank you everyone for being here. Thanks so much to Anna, David, Teresa, and Joely.

[widdershins] 2:10 pm: Thanks all….. lots of good stuff to masticate over

[Deena] 2:10 pm: Oh, that’s disturbing Bas.

[AnnaB] 2:10 pm: Thanks everyone.

[teresawymore] 2:10 pm: i tried that a few times too..tough balance

[PeachesNCream] 2:10 pm: Awesome panel…Thanks!!

[teresawymore] 2:11 pm: thanks!

[chibiBoo] 2:11 pm: thanks for the panel

[basletum] 2:11 pm: I’m just jaded like that.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: Bye, everyone!

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write accurate historical fiction. I joined fellow authors Nora Fleisher, Gary Inbinder, and Rachael de Vienne on Friday, May 21st. Deena Fisher moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.
——————————————

[Deena] 11:01 pm: This is Accurate Historical Fiction with Nora, Gary, Teresa, and Rachael.

[Deena] 11:01 pm: Let’s start with introductions. Nora, want to start?

[Nora Fleischer] 11:01 pm: Sure! Hi there, I’m Nora Fleischer. I wrote Over Her Head for Deena at Drollerie–

[Deena] 11:02 pm: Over Her Head is a historical mercreature romance, and pretty awesome.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:02 pm: Thanks! And I’ve also written academic history about the early American middle class.

[Deena] 11:03 pm: Okay, moving on, Rachael, an introduction please?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:04 pm: i’m a historian by profession, and i write fantasy fiction. Pixie warrior is published by drollerie press. i have a history book out and many articles in history journals

[Deena] 11:04 pm: And she’s working on the second book in the Pixie world.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:04 pm: pixies!

[Deena] 11:05 pm: Teresa, introduction please?

[teresawymore] 11:06 pm: Howdy…Teresa Wymore. I’ve written historicals set in Late Rome and the Old West. My education’s in classical languages, so I have a good foundation for my historical, Stilicho’s Son, and the fantasy, Darklaw, which has an imperial flavor. Also, I’ve written some shorts. But I’ve had to do a great deal of research in various ways which we can chat about tonight.

[Deena] 11:07 pm: Teresa’s book, Darklaw, will be out shortly.

[Deena] 11:07 pm: Gary, would you introduce yourself?

[Gary I] 11:12 pm: Hi, I’m Gary Inbinder, author of Confessions of the Creature, published by Drollerie Press, a speculative historical novel inspired by Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein. I’m a review Editor at Bewildering Stories and my short fiction, articles and essays appear in BwS, Morpheus Tales, The Absent Willow Review, The Copperfield Revie and other print and online publications. I’ve posted a historical research outline on my blog garyinbinder.com. Please check it out! [Moved for clarity.]

[Deena] 11:10 pm: Okay, so, panelists: Do you have a special responsibility to be accurate when writing historical fiction?”

[teresawymore] 11:10 pm: Nope

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:10 pm: me meme! yes, you do …. if for no other reason than thatyour readers will spot the flaws and it will take them out of your story

[Nora Fleischer] 11:10 pm: In some ways, yes. I got in an argument with someone once…

[Nora Fleischer] 11:11 pm: Who I thought wrote a story that had a Confederate apologist slant.

[teresawymore] 11:11 pm: People read fiction for the characters and relationships. Everything else is background, but the more authoritative it seems, the more power your story has to capture the imagination. Notice I said “seems”. Most people won’t know the details of the period. Those that do will overlook the alterations if the story is good.

[Deena] 11:11 pm: heh. Teresa says no, Rachael says absolutely, and Nora says sort of.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:11 pm: One the other hand, I think there are things you can’t be accurate about because they’re just unknowable.

[teresawymore] 11:11 pm: Ths is why hollywood makes so much money on bad historicals

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:11 pm: i have a good example. … in pixie warrior the little pixie who saves the world drops a sword to kill a nasty creature. … in the first draft, i had the sword drop and impale the creature … then i talked to a medieval weapons expert

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:12 pm: and he said no no no won’t happen that way

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:12 pm: because of balance issues

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:12 pm: he woudn’t have been the only one to notice

[teresawymore] 11:12 pm: It’s true, it’s the details that really annoy me– all the people in Regency romances that die in “carriage accidents.”

[teresawymore] 11:12 pm: Instead of cholera.

[teresawymore] 11:13 pm: But I think it’s even more important to get the characters accurate for the period.

[teresawymore] 11:13 pm: Take Mad Men– the power of that show comes from the period restrictions on people like Joan Holloway, who should be running the place…

[teresawymore]11:13 pm: details matter … and they effect your character’s character … if you know what i mean …

[teresawymore] 11:13 pm: There are two kinds of historical fact–events and culture

[teresawymore] 11:14 pm: i don’t care about the events so much, but getting the culture/relationships right is paramount to me as a reader and writer

[Gary I] 11:14 pm: We should avoid anachromisms. But Steampunk and Mash-ups are a different matter.

[teresawymore] 11:14 pm: Nora…exactly

[teresawymore] 11:15 pm: That’s the dif between the old Kubrick movie of Spartacus and the current series Blood and Sand.

[teresawymore] 11:15 pm: Both got events wrong but the current version got the culture right

[Transcript break. Some small amount of text may have been lost.]

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:16 pm: you don’t use every detail you find, but it gives you insight into the era and people in your story

[teresawymore] 11:16 pm: Right…hahahah…no info dumps!

[Nora Fleischer] 11:16 pm: I find the idea of steampunk difficult… maybe because the only steampunk I’ve read was bad.

[Gary I] 11:16 pm: An accurate voice for the period is also important. You can get that from reading period literature.

[teresawymore] 11:17 pm: Steampunk is awesome and hard and i’min the middle of writing one right now.

[Deena] 11:17 pm: Is there such a thing as historically accurate steampunk?

[Nora Fleischer] 11:17 pm: I love the aesthetic. But I get caught up on, “that’s not physically possible”? Or “why would you have gears there, they’re nonfunctional.”

[teresawymore] 11:17 pm: The anachronisms define it.

[Gary I] 11:18 pm: I gave an example of a Victorian Chunnel. It could have been done. I think Brunel planned it in 1850s?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:18 pm: in pixie warrior one of the main characters is a lumber camp cook. he is based on a real person that lived in my grandmother’s cabin. he was older than dirt and everyone called him “dingy bill.” i took his voice and experience as camp cook, and i think i made a believable character out of him

[teresawymore] 11:18 pm: Can well-written historical fiction be as accurate as non-fiction? Does it need to be?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:19 pm: it can be, but it doesn’t need to be … you’re making your own world

[Gary I] 11:19 pm: I think in fiction the story always comes first, but it can be as accurate in its details and characters as non-fiction.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:19 pm: you get to fiddle with details

[Nora Fleischer] 11:19 pm: Yes. And there’s always a reason you set it in the past, right?

[Nora Fleischer] 11:19 pm: It’s the fun of writing characters with the peculiar restrictions they had in the past.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:20 pm: Or the fun of trying to imagine life in a less technologically advanced society.

[teresawymore] 11:20 pm: like all spec fic, it lets you examine the present through spotlighting a difference

[Gary I] 11:20 pm: Yes, and choosing the period is the jumping off point for research.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:20 pm: Or one with different rules in general.

[Gary I] 11:20 pm: In Confessions, Mary Shelley’s novel dictated the period.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:21 pm: Teresa, do you think your books are really about the present? Like the alien worlds on Star Trek?

[Nora Fleischer] 11:21 pm: TOS, I mean.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:21 pm: Because I feel like when I’m writing about the past, I’m writing about the past.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:21 pm: But maybe I’m wrong.

[Gary I] 11:22 pm: When I write about the past I believe I’m in the past. Is that wierd?

[teresawymore] 11:22 pm: They’re about relationships and choices…and those choices I examine by placing restrictions through time/alien worlds.

[teresawymore] 11:22 pm: Every story is an overcoming. I see spec fic in the same way, whether past or future

[Nora Fleischer] 11:22 pm: Gary, it shows a greater power of imagination than I have…

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:23 pm: … cultural details differ, but people are people. human emotions cross cultures and time … they don’t change. historical fiction borrows a setting, but the emotions have to be identifiable to your reader

[Gary I] 11:23 pm: Thanks Nora. I think its just living in the character.

[teresawymore] 11:23 pm: Right Rachael…although people have had very different sensibilities

[Nora Fleischer] 11:23 pm: Agree with Teresa.

[Gary I] 11:23 pm: Yes, Agree

[Nora Fleischer] 11:24 pm: For example, families haven’t always expressed “love” in the same way.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:24 pm: Or marriage: the role of marriage has really shifted. Much less emphasis on security, more on emotional sustenance.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:25 pm: they don’t express love in the same way now, either. my german relations aren’t very much like the french ones. …

[teresawymore] 11:25 pm: hahaha! Shows you the stuff I write! I was thinking of violence and sex being dif

[Gary I] 11:25 pm: I’m writing something set in 1910 California. Different social mores. But then, there’s a succubus –
[Nora Fleischer] 11:25 pm: True.

[teresawymore] 11:25 pm: hahahah! Succubus…how’s that different than 2010 CA?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:26 pm: pixie warrior is set in lassen county CA about 1918-1919

[Gary I] 11:26 pm: The succubus has a very different way of expressing love. same in 1910 as 2010.

[teresawymore] 11:26 pm: LOL

[Nora Fleischer] 11:26 pm: My Drollerie book was also early twentieth century! Is that Deena, or us, do you think?

[Deena] 11:26 pm: Not my fault!

[Gary I] 11:26 pm: Yeah, Deena. Do you like that period?

[teresawymore] 11:27 pm: Cool period. I love the art

[Deena] 11:27 pm: Um… yes?

[Deena] 11:27 pm: I do, actually.

[Deena] 11:27 pm: But I’d publish different periods if I had them!

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:27 pm: would anyone like to explain how to do quality research?

[Nora Fleischer] 11:27 pm: To Rachael: first, know the basic facts. Get yourself a textbook.

[Gary I] 11:27 pm: Quality research? Don’t rely on wikipedia for everything. grin

[Nora Fleischer] 11:27 pm: If you have a history professor friend, you can probably get one for free.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:28 pm: << is my own history professor friend

[Nora Fleischer] 11:28 pm: Because they will get ten a year from different publishers and they will say “Here! Take them! Please!”

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:28 pm: i tell my students to visit the child’s section of the library first if the topic is new

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:28 pm: get a basic book

[teresawymore] 11:28 pm: Books! Not movies. Websites if they’re universities.

[Gary I] 11:29 pm: Rachael, I always start with good general histories of the period. And literature, if there is lit. of that time.

[teresawymore] 11:29 pm: There are all these private lives books out now, the kind of stuff you didn’t learn in school

[Nora Fleischer] 11:29 pm: I agree on the literature. Sometimes it’s the best way to get the details of daily life.

[Gary I] 11:29 pm: And paintings, pictures, photos, plates etc. good for visualizing.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:29 pm: Project Gutenberg: free!

[teresawymore] 11:30 pm: Gutenberg is great

[Gary I] 11:30 pm: Project Gutenbergs excellent.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:30 pm: there are excellent resources on the web. google book, image results … the library of congress has free to use photos online

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:30 pm: there is a massive new york and related newspaper data base back to the 1820s

[Nora Fleischer] 11:30 pm: Also, don’t just read novels. Novels are godawful until about 1800, in my opinion. Read essays, newspapers, etc.

[Gary I] 11:31 pm: All sorts of photos on the internet. Historical societies, societies dedicated to particular historical persons, etc.

[teresawymore] 11:31 pm: I wouldn’t rely on any fiction for your own fiction

[Nora Fleischer] 11:31 pm: Oh yes, read poetry, too. And letters.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:31 pm: i have hundreds of 19th and early 20th century novels. most are just awful, but you get good insight into speech patterns.

[teresawymore] 11:31 pm: Dialect, speech pattern, slang…always dangerous

[Gary I] 11:31 pm: Yes, old novels of the period are good for dialogue. manners, etc.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:32 pm: and some are suprisingly good. The canadian writer Cameron is still worth a read and re-read

[teresawymore] 11:32 pm: so hard to get that right and not overdo it.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:32 pm: True, I’m just saying that novels weren’t the best thing people were writing until very recently. And old newspapers are fun! Smutty and fun!

[teresawymore] 11:32 pm: A flavor of the culture but clear enough for modern reader

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:33 pm: there are millions of pages of digitalized newspapers online

[teresawymore] 11:33 pm: Love old newspaper. Late 19th Cen was so pretentious

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:33 pm: some are pay sites and some are free. Library of congress has free online searchable

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:33 pm: google news archives is a combination.

[Gary I] 11:33 pm: I was just watching BBC pproductions of Jane Austen, Henry James and George Eliot novels. You get a great sense of the periods.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:33 pm: new york times archive is free.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:34 pm: If you want to read a great pay site, I recommend these guys:

http://www.genealogybank.com/gbnk/

[teresawymore] 11:34 pm: if you join one of the newspaper aggregating sites with pay, be careful…i had a bad experience a few years ago and took forever to get cancelled.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:34 pm: ancestry.com is pay site

[teresawymore] 11:34 pm: so much is free but will take you time

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:34 pm: with newspaper archive

[Nora Fleischer] 11:34 pm: If you’re near an academic library, I recommend looking up all the databases that Readex has put together.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:34 pm: http://fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html is one of the best, mostly new york, some connecticut and NJ, digitalized books, rivers.

[riversway] 11:35 pm: what is Project Gutenberg

[Nora Fleischer] 11:35 pm: Project Gutenberg is an attempt to digitize every book that’s off copyright, where you can read it for free.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:35 pm: also books.google.com is good; google books is searchable; also www.archive.org, which is searchable by subject, title and text.

[Deena] 11:35 pm: http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page

[widdershins] 11:36 pm: is there a comparable Canadian database/bases, (or elsewhere in the world)?

[Nora Fleischer] 11:36 pm: Widdershins, I wish I knew about Canada, but I’m an American historian… I’ve come across things in passing.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:36 pm: During a class, The Historian as Investigator, the instructor told us to never consider newspapers as authentic for research. People don’t always tell the truth. If she was correct, wouldn’t the papers at least be of value for what was going on at the time? Was she right?

[teresawymore] 11:38 pm: I love sweeping generalizations. Newspapers are great depending on what you’re looking for. Essentially, ALL history is based on authority. Who you gonna believe?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:38 pm: jazzy, historians use newspapers, but content is often off, wrong.

[Gary I] 11:38 pm: Newspapers do give you a good idea of what was going on, and the way people thought about events at the time. You can check facts in reliable history books.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:38 pm: but they can give you insights into what people thought and said, same with magazines.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:38 pm: Everything written can be wrong.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:38 pm: For me that was a terrifying realization!

[Gary I] 11:38 pm: And everything wrong can be written

[teresawymore] 11:38 pm: hee hee hee

[Nora Fleischer] 11:39 pm: The other thing that’s interesting about reading old newspapers is that it shows you that the purpose of a newspaper has shifted.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:39 pm: in my book on the barbourite movement, a 19th century millennialist religion, my writing partner and i were heavily dependent on newspaper articles, because that’s all there is

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:39 pm: you have to measure them against known events and beliefs

[Nora Fleischer] 11:39 pm: Look at old stories in the NYT– the tone was much more scandal-mongering in the 1800s. Like reading TMZ today!

[Gary I] 11:39 pm: Old adverts are good for learning how people lived. What they bought, like bilious pills, etc.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:40 pm: And newspapers used to wear their politics right on their sleeve.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:40 pm: yes, that’s why i mention Pears soap in pixie warrior and not dove …

[Nora Fleischer] 11:40 pm: Or on the masthead. Like, the “Republican Star,” or something like that.

[Deena] 11:41 pm: What makes historical fiction fail? What makes it less credible?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:41 pm: bad writing makes it fail. … bad detail adds to bad writing

[teresawymore] 11:41 pm: amen rachael

[Gary I] 11:41 pm: What makes it fail? Have a Regency Lady say, “Wassup girlfriend!”

[Nora Fleischer] 11:41 pm: If I don’t believe in the characters, I’m going to start nitpicking details.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:41 pm: Regency gentlemen who swear in front of ladies.

[connieneil] 11:41 pm: You can go too far in the direction of period speech, though.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:41 pm: That’s a fail.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:42 pm: Something interesting, and awful, is going on in Texas right now. They’ve voted to change the curriculum in schools, i.e., one of the things is to not name the slave trade as the slave trade. They’re calling it something innocuous (spelling).

[teresawymore] 11:42 pm: Yes, jazzy and that revisionist spirit is not new but has been in the hisotryof our history, so again, what we’re gettign from history is always meddled
with

[Gary I] 11:42 pm: Dimme! Od’s fish! Sink me!

Deena] 11:42 pm: Jazzy: “Atlantic triangular trade”?

[teresawymore] 11:42 pm: Hahahaha!

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:42 pm: public school and college texts are usually poorly written, wrong and misleading

[connieneil] 11:42 pm: Probably sticking as close to “proper speech” makes for a more formal/historical tone.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:42 pm: bad place to start

[Gary I] 11:42 pm: That was my Scarlet Pimpernel impression. Dimme sir, I say, wot!

[teresawymore] 11:42 pm: right connie

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:43 pm: yar, stand and deliver! or something

[Nora Fleischer] 11:43 pm: I once had a weird experience: a commenter wrote on something I’d written that he’d lost faith in the characters because I put slaves in 18th century New York city.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:43 pm: He didn’t seem to know that there were slaves in the northern states…

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:43 pm: but there were slave in 18th century ny

[teresawymore] 11:43 pm: public education…

[Nora Fleischer] 11:43 pm: And I think that slavery was legal in New York until about 1815…

[connieneil] 11:44 pm: The abolitionists were working more from a religious point of view.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:44 pm: So what’s really tricky is writing something historically accurate that goes against people’s preconceptions.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:44 pm: readers are funny people. i got a bit of fan mail that said they loved the play off little red riding hood. … and i’m reading it and thinking, “what play off little red riding hood?”

[Gary I] 11:44 pm: There was also feudalism in old New York. The Dutch Patroons. Lasted until the 1840s.

[teresawymore] 11:44 pm: yes nora! That’s why worrying too much about accuracy can kill the story

[Nora Fleischer] 11:45 pm: What isn’t about Little Red Riding Hood, really? I mean, it’s the central metaphor everywhere:

[Nora Fleischer] 11:45 pm: Luke Skywalker= Little Red

[Nora Fleischer] 11:45 pm: Darth Vader= Big Bad Wolf

[Nora Fleischer] 11:45 pm: Obi-Wan: Woodsman

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:45 pm: well, they focused on a little red coat that someone tried to make my naked pixie wear. Not too much of little red in that, except the color of the coat.

[Deena] 11:46 pm: Real-life people in fiction: good idea or not?

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:46 pm: sometimes

[teresawymore] 11:46 pm: Sure

[Gary I] 11:46 pm: The Star Wars characters were archetypes.

[teresawymore] 11:46 pm: best revenge

[connieneil] 11:46 pm: Good, but if they’re a primary character, walk *real* careful.

[amyleigh07] 11:46 pm: depends on type of story you’re telling.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:46 pm: in one of the stories in pixie2 king edward 3 appears

[Nora Fleischer] 11:46 pm: I usually won’t put real-life people in, because I’m not interested in the major figures of American history as characters…

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:47 pm: i think it works well

[teresawymore] 11:47 pm: Adding real people gets you immediate credibility, but more scrutiny

[connieneil] 11:47 pm: And make sure it’s plausible that they’re where the story puts them, I had a heck of a time justifying Da Vinci being in a particular place in Italy at a particular time.

[connieneil] 11:47 pm: Had all sorts of encyclopedias and history timelines open.

[Gary I] 11:47 pm: Confessions has Mary Shelley, Byron, Shelley and a bunch of old Russian generals.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:47 pm: yes, and you have no idea what i went through to find out how tall Edward III was and the colour of his hair. about 6 1 or so and reddish brown.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:48 pm: I don’t usually use real people, because my history writing is about non-famous businessmen, and so is most of my historical fiction.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:48 pm: Even if mine were real, no one would recognize them!

[Nora Fleischer] 11:49 pm: Agree with Teresa above. I generally react negatively to real-life people, because my
nitpicker goes off immediately.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:50 pm: I guess I feel a greater responsibility to get it accurate, than I would with a fake person?

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:50 pm: If I’m not mistaken, a few years ago a burial ground of blacks was found in NY – or one of the eastern states. They proved they were from slave times.

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:50 pm: new york city, jazzy

[Nora Fleischer] 11:50 pm: NYC, yes!

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:51 pm: near city hall

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:51 pm: guys, i’m going to have to leave … in the secret life of every pixie there are odd things, such as being a reserve deputy. … i’m going to be late if i don’t get on the road now.

[Deena] 11:51 pm: bye Rachael!

[Nora Fleischer] 11:51 pm: Bye, Rachael!

[Rachael de Vienne] 11:51 pm: have fun and visit me at http://wardancingpixie.blogspot.com/

[Gary I] 11:51 pm: Bye

[teresawymore] 11:51 pm: awesome rachael

[basletum] 11:51 pm: Bye Rachel!

[riversway] 11:52 pm: thanks Rachel ;take care

[Nora Fleischer] 11:52 pm: Canada, above: this looks interesting: http://www.genealogysearch.org/free/bcanada.html

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:53 pm: Thanks Rachel

[basletum] 11:53 pm: In Ohio, the place where I used to live at was once a Northern concentration camp during the Civil War. Not only were northern slave master placed in it, but their slaves also. Nearly two thousand died from disease and malnutrition in it.

[Gary I] 11:54 pm: Civil War prisoner camps were nasty. Andersonvills, Libby < Blue Island.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:54 pm: Wow. Which reminds me: the Parks Service does great work in public history. Don’t forget the public historians!

[teresawymore] 11:54 pm: sounds like there’s a good story there

[basletum] 11:54 pm: Yeah. The whole area is haunted, too.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:54 pm: Scott, is this a place you can visit? What can you see?

[Gary I] 11:55 pm: I read “Andersonville” years ago. I think it was Mckinley Kantor?

[basletum] 11:55 pm: Nora: it’s mostly just a bunch of houses along Eakin rd now. Everything’s pretty much been paved over and built on.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:56 pm: Scott, that’s a shame.

[connieneil] 11:56 pm: re: real people–would you rather have a real person or someone slightly disguised based off a real person but who is identifiable?

[teresawymore] 11:56 pm: i like it out in the open because otherwise it seems as if the writer is hiding, unsure, afraid

[teresawymore] 11:56 pm: be bold…put it out there

[widdershins] 11:56 pm: @Nora… thanks for the Canadian hit …. Kage baker wrote that wonderful series of nine or so books beginning with “In the Garden of Iden, where her fictional characters operate in the ‘shadow’ of actual historical events… that is, they can act as long as they don’t affect ‘recorded’ history.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:57 pm: Connie, what’s the person there to do?

[Jazzyartwriter2] 11:57 pm: Even when you don’t use a real person, someone might claim you put them in the book. I had that happen with my first mystery and the man who claimed this didn’t resemble any of the characters.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:57 pm: Why does he need to be in the novel?

[Gary I] 11:57 pm: I used some real people in Confessions. But most of them were very well known. That opens me to fact checking by some readers so I had to be careful with my research.

[connieneil] 11:58 pm: Perhaps your main character is in attendance at Appamattox, odds are he could run into someone real. Or he’s dropping off courier items to a major officer.

[teresawymore] 11:58 pm: i figure if someone’s reading you closely enough to compare facts with another source, bonus

[Nora Fleischer] 11:58 pm: Here’s another Canadian site, this one looks great! http://www1.canadiana.org/

[connieneil] 11:59 pm: Or if there’s politics, it could easily involve someone real, if you’re closely following a country’s history.

[Nora Fleischer] 11:59 pm: If he’s there to add verisimilitude, or a sense of the presence of history, I think that’s fine.

[Gary I] 11:59 pm: Of course, in Mashups you have Queen Victoria hunting demons.

[teresawymore] 11:59 pm: yes!

[Gary I] 11:59 pm: And Abe Lincoln killing vampires.

[teresawymore] 11:59 pm: no rules, but then not historical ficiton either

[Nora Fleischer] 11:59 pm: I liked Esther Friesner’s use of Sherlock Holmes, Dr. Watson, and Queen Victoria in her novel whose name I can’t remember.

[connieneil] 11:59 pm: One book I read involved the heroine bribing one of George IV’s mistresses

[basletum] 11:59 pm: Ah! I remembered! Camp chase!

[Nora Fleischer] 12:00 am: But if it doesn’t act like the real person, why have them there? I keep thinking of Mark Twain in Star Trek, TNG: what a loathsome mockery of the real thing.

[Gary I] 12:00 am: Many historical novels place real people in fictional situations.

[connieneil] 12:00 am: How do you know they’re not acting like the real person?

[teresawymore] 12:01 am: i kinda like mark twain in tng

[Nora Fleischer] 12:01 am: Because a guy who made his primary income as a lecturer wouldn’t have that horrible creaky old coot voice.

[teresawymore] 12:01 am: no history there, but the time travel was cool

[Gary I] 12:01 am: Star Trek had Lincoln too. Figthing alongside Jim Kirk.

[connieneil] 12:01 am: I don’t think Trek counts.

[Nora Fleischer] 12:01 am: Okay, obviously this is a matter of personal bias, but not scientific fact on my part, but AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[connieneil] 12:01 am: Red Dwarf had Gandhi with a machine gun.

[teresawymore] 12:02 am: i think authors get known for the kind of history they write–accurate, entertaining, blend

[Gary I] 12:02 am: Heh

[teresawymore] 12:02 am: you can focus too much on one or the other

[teresawymore] 12:02 am: if i want completely accurate, i’ll read nonfiction. Peter Brown writes awesome history of late Rome.

[jaleta] 12:02 am: Red Dwarf also had Winnie the Pooh and Queen Victoria in that episode. I believe Pooh was blown up with a grenade.

[Nora Fleischer] 12:03 am: Not Pooh! No!

[Gary I] 12:03 am: Teresa, you’ve written about ancient Rome. The recent series Rome made up lots of stuff, but then we don’t have much about the period that’s verifiably accurate.

[teresawymore] 12:03 am: if i want a good story, i’ll let inaccuracies pass for the sense of transport

[jaleta] 12:03 am: Off screen, it was hysterically funny.

[widdershins] 12:03 am: oh no!…. exploding Pooh… Poohs don’t like being blown up!

[teresawymore] 12:03 am: depends on the period of rome you mean. most popular stuff is early rome

[connieneil] 12:03 am: Harry Turtledove’s alternate histories are good, I think. I liked the alternate Civil War one.

[Jazzyartwriter2] 12:04 am: Tell me Pooh came back to life.

[teresawymore] 12:04 am: we have a great deal from 5th century AD, my fave

[jaleta] 12:04 am: But SF is not historical fiction. It was never meant to be.

[Nora Fleischer] 12:04 am: Zombie Pooh?

[Gary I] 12:04 am: The stuff about Octavian’s mom, Atia, was all made up.

[widdershins] 12:04 am: Pooh is immortal

[teresawymore] 12:04 am: so much of our knowldedge of rome comes through secondary sources like Gibbon

[teresawymore] 12:04 am: the 19th century really revised ancient rome for us

[Gary I] 12:05 am: I read Suetonius and Livy. In tranlation of course. grin

[connieneil] 12:05 am: Victoria has a lot to answer for in terms of how history got interpreted. She had Definite Views.

[teresawymore] 12:05 am: Suetonius is like our TMZ

[connieneil] 12:05 am: Are there many primary sources for Rome?

[Gary I] 12:05 am: I Claudius relied heavily on Suetonius

[connieneil] 12:06 am: I was just thinking of I Claudius.

[connieneil] 12:06 am: Wonderful book.

[teresawymore] 12:06 am: yes…imperial laws, monuments, all the classic writers you heard about in school—all this from the upper class of course

[Gary I] 12:06 am: And Cladius the God, the sequel

[widdershins] 12:06 am: See… I told you Pooh was immortal…. there’s a sequel!

[Nora Fleischer] 12:06 am: That sounds like a fun read…

[connieneil] 12:06 am: I believe Agatha Christie based “And Death Comes At The End” (maybe) one some notes found on ancient pottery shards.

[Nora Fleischer] 12:07 am: Unfortunately, I need to leave, too.

[connieneil] 12:07 am: Bye, Nora.

[Gary I] 12:07 am: Bye Nora!

[teresawymore] 12:07 am: a great deal of the image we have of rome is through secondary sources that have given us “talking points” or a lens through which to see it. that’s why i like spartacus blood and sand so much…very different and more accurate

[Gary I] 12:08 am: I read Spartacus. Howard Fast

[connieneil] 12:08 am: I liked “Gladiator” for the wardrobe and sets, because it wasn’t all white togas and marble. Romans liked their colors.

[teresawymore] 12:09 am: The fiction writer’s job is to entertain. Don’t let boring or unknown history get in the way.

[Thanks and goodbyes were said as everyone suddenly rushed the doors and the session ended.]